yam wrote (edited )

Makes sense. Thanks for the long explanation! Interesting stuff.

So this language of oppression is not neutral descriptions of oppressive concepts, like debt, slave, king, etc, but the labeling of oppression as being harmful, I guess.


yam wrote

Debt is the language of economics it wasn't exactly oppression until the age of capital

When did this "age of capital" begin then? What about biblical rules, like Jubilee, meant to free people from debt oppression? What about indentured servitude of biblical times? How could there be a large movement centered around debt forgiveness if debt was not oppressive? I don't understand.


yam wrote

the language of oppression didn't exist before the modern era.

This is a very broad claim yet also very abstract. Not sure I understand. What about, say, debt, which is an oppressive concept that has existed for thousands of years?

To think that these were achievements of any people is just plain wrong.

Does that mean you think that I think that?


yam wrote

you could tell people fish were extinct and they still wouldn’t give a shit.

Yea... It is futile trying to convince anyone.

in all honesty, how do you do this in a way that changes minds?

I've found it helpful, both in terms of results and in terms of mental well-being, to refuse to sit at the table when there's dead bodies on it. It sometimes means that I have to skip the odd gathering, but it's also resulted in some fully vegan communal dinners. I find it easier to respond with empathy and talk about veganism when those around me are not literally in the middle of putting flesh in their mouths, and I think they find it easier too, because they are not feeling like they're being judged for what they're doing right now. Having that whole conversation before the meal is cooked and on the table is just more constructive, in my view, even if it means that I'll have to skip the event.

Eating delicious vegan food together can be a gentler starting point than this truly depressing discussion, relevant as it is, about fish extinction.

But people are different and we probably aren't playing on the same difficulty setting. I wish I knew how Joaquin was doing it though.


yam OP wrote

If these junk food shacks start to sell genuinely vegan menus then I'll permit myself to be cautiously optimistic. Currently so many people have zero clue what veganism even is, so I find it encouraging to see veganism becoming mainstream. I'm interested to see how these burgers will be advertised. They can't really call them cruelty-free because that would be admitting that the rest of their menu is cruel. If they fry them on the same grills as the carcasses, like the Rebel Whopper, then it's a non-starter. Once the vegan population reaches 5%, we'll tear all the slaughterhouses down.


yam wrote

'Nothing remarkable or noteworthy happened, they simply got eaten.'

This is so depressing. At a very minimum, time to start liberation pledgeing and refuse to passively condone participation in this around the dinner tables.