Where did I say disabled people should be forced inside? Are you implying everyone should be forced inside then? Your argument is confusing. I am vaccinated and wear masks and am currently isolated because I tested positive, but if I want to go to social events when I am recovered I am suddenly a "super spreader" and ableist? You're fucking ridiculous.

Fuck off. I'm sick of this fucking website and these fake ass parasocial interactions where it's just constant abuse and attacking. I'm done. Bye.

I'm sick of this liberal COVID hysteria. I don't know a single person who has died or even been hospitalized from COVID. I'm sick of this moralizing "super spreader" bullshit. People who aren't at risk who are avoiding immuno-compromised folks should be able to socialize and gather without being shamed.

Absolutely incredible that people on an anarchist forum of supposed critical thinkers just regurgitate state/media moral propaganda instead of respecting people's autonomy.

https://raddle.me/f/AMA/140658/-/comment/241051

It seemed like they made a poor word choice/You misinterpreted what they said.

You reacted to a misunderstanding in a very hostile way.

covid super spreader

I had omicron this week and it wasn't half as bad as other times I was sick in the last year. Why are you so worried about it?

So I accidentally called an animal "it". That's something I try to avoid doing because I am vegan and support animal liberation but it's so commonplace and engrained in our collective consciousness that it's hard to avoid. Oops. Ban me.

Again, if you're assuming that your cognitive ability is no better than that of a domestic cat, cool. But don't drag the rest of us down with you. That's not to say cats are not intelligent, but I think it's pretty clear we have a higher level of sentience than them, considering what we are doing right now. It's not speciesist to say that and if you think so you do not understand speciesism.

And no, I am no ableist and please don't try to imply that. I think we all understand that urban areas specifically (which is what I was referring to) can be quite dangerous for some folks who have severely limited cognitive abilities. That's not ableist. It would be ableist to not recognize the care and companionship some folks may need in order to safely navigate our very abelist world.

I know I probably don't need to defend myself in this thread. This is the pettiest thing I've seen on raddle since I made an account a year ago. Trying to shut down nuanced conversations by claiming we are all bigots is pathetic. You're desperate to feel like you won an argument on a site with like 20 regular posters. Go touch grass or something for fucks sake.

I'm not against the idea of personhood for animals entirely, but this is really funny and a good response to this bullshit post.

The fact that you're referring to a cat as 'it' reveals a lot by the way.

I actually try not to use "it", didn't mean to

but to claim you know the precise nature of these differences and measure them against human standards, on the basis of which you deem them inferior... yeah, that's speciesist

So is it anti-speciesist to assume all species of animals have equal intelligence? lol

it's ableist/sanist to do the same with cognitive differences between humans

It is not abliest to recognize that there are cognitive differences between humans. I have adhd, it's not ableist for someone to recognize that I function differently to others. That's ridiculous.

while I agree that this ableist and speciesist world presents many dangers

Okay, so wouldn't you agree that in the meantime, while those dangers still exist, that there is some reason to be cautious of allowing certain domesticated species or humans with severely limited cognitive abilities to explore (specifically urban) outdoor spaces alone in order to keep them from harming themselves or being harmed by others?

By the way you can respond but I am not replying any further because I don't think either of us are going to convince each other of anything and I'm kind of sick of you calling me ableist and speciesist for caring about the well-being of nonhuman species and differently abled humans. It's not bigoted to understand that some folks need care and companionship in order to thrive in an ableist, speciesist world.

I find that you seriously underestimate cats

I don't think I do. As I said, I am quite aware of all the dangers that are present for a free roaming cat in the city. I made the decision to take them in, if I let a cat out doors and something bad happens to it, I do think I'm responsible because I didn't have to let them outside.

arrogant and speciesist to assume that their level of decision-making is not the same than that of humans, with 'level' implying ours is superior

Listen if you don't think your intellectual abilities are above that of a cat, then that's your problem. It's not speciesist to recognize varying levels of cognitive and rational capabilities in different species, just like it's not ableist to recognize those differences exist in humans.

your analogy kind of falls flat

An ableist world doesn't change my "analogy", which was a question that you conveniently avoided answering. In fact, a speciesist and ableist world only reinforce the point I was making because the world we live in (specifically the urban areas) present many dangers because they are ableist and speciesist.

1. These cats did not grow up being let outside, they were indoor cats until I took them in.
2. I took them in, therefore taking responsibility for protecting them. One of them was starving after being kicked out of their house.
3. Cats do not possess the same level of decision making as humans.

If I think my cats want to go outside and I let them, and they get sick, get seriously injured, or killed, I am responsible for that. Do you think that's an ideal situation? Do you think it's based + praxis for me to let my sheltered indoor cats hurt or kill themselves?

It's unfortunate that animals grow up in captivity, in unnatural environments. It's also a shame that humans do. But to think that a domestic, captive cat is prepared to survive in the city where there are hostile cats and dogs, countless things to be cut by or trapped under, and moving vehicles to crush you, is ignorant. Your dads cat is lucky. The amount of cats that have to be put down or are accidentally killed in the city is ridiculous. I think its much better for me to "incarcerate" my cats and ensure they live healthy, full lives with lots of attention instead of risking an early, painful death.

And to make another point about cats and humans. Like I said, cats don't possess the decision making skills of an "average" human. If you had a human relative, who's cognitive function prevented them from having decision making skills that are expected in humans, would you allow them to roam freely in the city whenever they wished, knowing that they could easily harm themselves or be harmed by others? Or would you only allow them outside in a way that you could supervise or accompany them?

I'm sorry I'm icky? Lmao

You're allowed to think it's bullshit but I don't put much weight into criticisms of white vegans coming from people who don't support animal liberation. There's plenty of POC vegans that have much better criticisms of white vegans that I would much rather listen to.

I don't think my argument is "not all x", and if it comes across that way then I haven't been clear enough.

My point is that often when people speak of white vegans (often the people doing the speaking are white themselves), it is used as an attack on veganism as a whole. It's usually (in my experience) coming from people who claim that veganism itself is colonialist, racist, consumerist, etc. From what I have seen online, it's usually part of an attack on veganism from woke liberals who are using idpol to deflect from having to defend their carnism in other ways (because they can't).

people who use the term white vegan to specify a particular set of problematic and gross behaviors

This is the use sometimes, but as I have said, in my own experience, the "white vegan" thing is often coming from white carnists who try to tokenize POC as a defense for their own consumption.

I have had this experience several times in person and many time online, of white people attempting to use indigenous people as a defense for their own choices. They love to talk about how white vegans are problematic and pat themselves on the back while eating food grown on stolen indigenous land. It's disgusting.

I get that I probably should recognize that POC have better reasons than white people to complain about white vegans and that the joke I made was a little insensitive. However I stand by my claim that woke white carnists love to bring up white vegans as a defense for their own support of animal exploitation. Hope that's more clear.

That's not really possible or practical, and I live in a city where there are many ways for them to get injured, infected, or killed. Would that be better than "incarcerating" them? You might say that if I live in such a place then I shouldn't have taken them in. But there are many cats who get abandoned here in the city that would suffer without the help of humans because they weren't raised outdoors by other outdoor cats. It's also not really possible or practical to relocate all of these cats to rural areas.

Ideally I would live in a situation where I could have the cats come and go as they please, but that's not really possible for me and them living with me is better than living in a pound until they get put down, or abandoned on the street to starve and get ran over by a car. I'm doing the best I can for them, as good as they would likely receive from any other adoptive family, and to compare what I do for them to imprisoning humans is inaccurate, ignorant, and kind of insensitive to incarcerated people.

So close to getting it!

So you're saying that keeping an indoor cat indoors is incarceration right? What's the difference?

When did I say white vegans can't be criticized? Now you have just put words in my mouth.

What I have said before is that think it's funny how many people online think all white vegans are racist etc. It's very common and it's not just racialized people who complain about it, in fact it's mostly white liberals who do it. There are in fact plenty of shitty white vegans but the idea of "white vegans" is often used to imply that veganism is racist, colonialist, etc. It's a defense mechanism used by liberal carnists to show that veganism is not woke enough. It's ridiculous. The reason I made the joke was not that they were brown, simply just the because they mentioned "white vegans".

The person in the screenshot clearly wants nothing to do with any sort of criticism whether it's coming from a white vegan or a black post-leftist. I kind of doubt they would want to hear from a brown vegan either.

Look I get what you're saying about them being brown and having boundaries, and I realize that they've probably been harassed by shitty white people online. I'm just going to remove that poorly written joke and not bring up the whole "white vegan" thing anymore if people are just going to misinterpret it as me being racist, because I don't want to give anyone that impression. In fact one of my reasons for my diet choices is not supporting the exploitation of people in the global south and the theft and destruction of their ancestral land.

You're right, I'm totally racist and you should cancel me for attempting a joke (that had nothing to do with them being brown and everything to do with them being a liberal carnist)

So is it vegan to take cats who were raised indoors and force them to rewild against their will, and against their learned abilities? I'm vegan and I live with two cats that I took in that were both essentially abandoned by their owners. I don't think that trying to maintain the only lifestyle they know is cruel or inhumane or not vegan/not anarchist. They did not grow up hunting, and they are poorly adapted to survive the cold climate in which I live. I think the best case scenario for pets in that position is to keep them comfortable in the situation they are accustomed to, which is being indoors.

Are you honestly suggesting that the ethical thing to do is for people to abandon their pets who were raised indoors and force them to go feral?

To be clear, I don't agree with breeding pets, shopping for pets, or forcing wild animals indoors. But in the same way that I, as a domesticated human would not survive outdoors alone, house cats would not survive either.

To insinuate that I'm "incarcerating" my feline family members is ridiculous.

I though it was clear that was a joke lmao

I loved FO3 and NV, tried to play 2 once and gave up after 20 minutes lol

Yeah same, I find it really hard to not drink it sometimes even though I really don't want to, especially on campus cause there's like 4 coffee shops in the Uni buildings. I plan to pick some dandelions this spring and make some dandelion root tea as Ive heard that tastes a lot like coffee if you roast the roots. I usually lift a decaf flavour of Oteas which is an organic tea brand with plastic free packaging.

I love that stuff, the blueberry and cherry flavours fuck. Their bengal and apple cinnamon teas are so good too.

Yeah definitely. I try not to judge people too easily but Ive worked in a blue collar, male dominated trade and these type of guys are generally pretty ignorant and reactionary. Its one of the reasons I left the trade actually. But having that personal experience working in a blue collar field and knowing first hand what a lot of these guys are like is a lot different than a college educated liberal whose never gotten their hands dirty making classist assumptions.

Pretty sure I read something similar but can't remember the title. If I find it I'll post the link.