groovygardener42069

groovygardener42069 wrote

Again, I don't know what to tell you. I sincerely apologize and I'm admitting that you have made me reconsider a couple of things that led me to project that onto the conversation.

And I wasn't being sarcastic in that last bit. It's okay if you value other things higher than trust in your intimate relationships.

However, I'm getting the feeling that you're just intentionally trying to trigger me at this point. Is that the case? Would you prefer if I got all mad and told you to suck on a dog turd and fuck off away from me?

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groovygardener42069 wrote

Wow. I struck a nerve. Sorry.

I don't know what to tell you. I apologize for assuming your gender.

I don't apologize for navigating the world in a way that I see fit that allows me to minimize the harm brought upon me by others and maximizing the joy I can bring to the lives of those close to me.

I think at this point it might be better to cut our losses on this conversation. Clearly you don't place the same value on trust in intimate relationships as me. That's fine, I guess. I can't change that, nor do I have the energy left to continue arguing in circles about it.

I sincerely hope you have a great day

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groovygardener42069 wrote

This whole thought piece struck a really ugly chord in me man.

And maybe it's because I'm autistic, but I learned at some point that simply vocalizing your needs actually works if the other person is down with it. It's a hell of a lot easier than dropping hints or playing coy about it too.

I mean I haven't been single in years, but try it sometime. "I really like you and I hope the feeling is mutual. Do you want me to kiss you?" I'm married to that woman now so maybe that's not what you're looking for but it seemed to work just fine back when I was fucking around, too.

I live in a pretty regular city, and there are a handful of sex clubs one could go to to find people interested in polyamory or swinging or whatever they wanna call it. Chances are there would be more regular people than anarchists in those spaces, too. It would probably be easier for me to find someone interested in an open relationship than it would be for me to find hard dope around here. Idk though, maybe if you live in flyover country that might not be the case.

And in any case, I don't think pointing out that polyamory is hard really negates the fact that it's preferable to breach of trust. Any worthwhile relationship is hard.

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groovygardener42069 wrote

I didn't see your response

I think it's possible that you and I have a different vantage point for our emotional history and the relationships we've had and that's where this comes from, to an extent.

In an abstract sense, a relationship requires emotional labor from both sides in order to properly function. Many romantic relationships are absolutely unbalanced in that sense, and I could see why someone who feels that their emotional labor isn't being respected or reciprocated might look elsewhere.

That's not an indictment of monogamy in and of itself, that's an indictment of our hegemonic socialization around relationship-building, of which monogamy is only a small part.

In the 21 years since this article was published, there are more tools than ever for finding and building healthy, loving, polyamorous relationships. If you told someone up front that you wanted that and they tried to trap you into monogamy, -that still doesn't give you the right to sleep with them under the pretense that you will remain monogamous-. Do the courageous thing and cut off the relationship so you can find what you're actually looking for, without having to lie to get it.

Or at the very least, if you plan to be a cheater, you have to understand that a lot of people that you love and respect will probably lose their respect for you. That's not unfair, that's people trying to protect themselves from what they see as abusive behavior.

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groovygardener42069 wrote

My wife is fully comfortable being in a monogamous relationship. She may not be the best example though because she has been raped multiple times by different people and generally distrusts men.

I'm not promoting what you're implying I'm promoting. I'm promoting being up front about needs and intentions to ensure that trust isn't breached, especially when building a relationship predicated on whatever one's version of love is. I don't have the energy to be snarky right now, but this really feels like trying to have one's cake (the sexual freedom of a polyamorous relationship) and eat it too (the financial and emotional security of a monogamous relationship).

I have no qualms and project no moralism onto the concept of having multiple sexual partners. The -practice- of leading someone to believe something that is not true (one's willingness to commit to monogamy) in order to leverage sex and emotional intimacy is an ethical issue that I'm not willing to endorse. Have an orgy if you want - you can even invite me but I'll probably politely decline or just DJ the event without actively participating.

And honestly at this point I'm finding it hard to believe that multiple people, near as I can tell all of which appear to be men, are unable to see the distinction there.

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groovygardener42069 wrote

Okay, and I've been victimized by real life humans with beating hearts who are sociopaths. As someone who is part of a group that is easily targeted for violence, particularly by those who are adept at manipulating social situations, I have no choice but to keep my guard up at all times. I'm aware of the distinction between the medical definition and the popular definition of the term, but there's also my personal definition of the term that I use to communicate to those I trust when I am concerned about my own personal safety. I don't know what to tell you in regards to that - I generally enjoy feeling safe in my own skin and I will do what it takes to ensure that happens.

A world where cheating is normalized (as opposed to a world where, say, polyamory is normalized) is a world that actively disregards my personal well-being. Why on earth would I ever want to work towards that?

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groovygardener42069 wrote (edited )

I would also like to point out that this article was very obviously written by a cishet man probably back in the 90s. There's nothing revolutionary about cishet men cheating on their partners. That has been part and parcel of patriarchy for millennia.

I've thought about this a little bit today, and I will concede that women cheating on male partners can absolutely be revolutionary under certain circumstances. I'd be more willing to engage with a text that attempts to tackle the topic from that perspective.

However this still reads to me like some dickhead who spread VD at the punk house trying to wax philosophical about why everyone else is just trying to trap him in the gilded cage of loving monogamous relationships.

Once again, if you don't want monogamy, say so on the first date. I've read feminist theory that argues that lying as a way to leverage sex when the person otherwise wouldn't be willing to consent (ie, claiming to want monogamy when you absolutely plan to cheat on your partner) is a form of coercive rape. You may think that's dramatic phrasing, but to dismiss the notion on the grounds of "buh buh muh dopamine and nerve endings" seems misguided at best.

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groovygardener42069 wrote

Mutual trust and respect are the cornerstone of any of my relationships or friendships. Without that, I am not capable of the level of vulnerability required to maintain a healthy and productive relationship. I can't speak for anyone else though.

I would like to reiterate that poisoning the well by breaking mutual trust and respect with those you love is not valid praxis, and if one of my good friends did that to their partner I would probably think twice about letting them into the circle again (partly out of a sense of respect for the person whose trust was breached, and partly because issues of trust are a personal safety issue for me).

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groovygardener42069 wrote (edited )

It's almost like there's levels to this shit man.

You've just described a bunch of red herrings that don't fit with the conversation. Don't establish relationships with people you claim to love and respect if you don't expect to treat them with love and respect. I never asked to be policed by a riot cop, that's a fucking absurd comparison.

And don't call me honey.

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groovygardener42069 wrote

I'm not about to argue the devastating effects of unchecked sociopathy in our society when the results are everywhere around us.

To be clear, my definition of a sociopath is one who actively engages in sociopathic behavior to the detriment of others. I understand that to some extent, sociopathy is necessary (for example, I wouldn't want a squeamish surgeon) and that "sociopathic tendencies" do not necessarily imply that someone will act upon them.

But if you can think of a better way to describe people who actively disregard the health and safety of those around them, I'd like to hear it. That way I'll have a larger vocabulary with which to understand who I don't want to let into my life.

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groovygardener42069 wrote (edited )

"I can do whatever I want and they'll get over it" is the logic of a sociopath, mate.

Edit: After some consideration, I've decided that "abuser" is a much more effective word here than "sociopath" in this context. I'm leaving up the original comment tho so it doesn't look like a dirty edit

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groovygardener42069 wrote

Most relationships are borne out of convenience.

I'd argue what's more revolutionary is building loving, healthy, trusting relationships as a rule.

I can't speak for anyone else but if you're going to fuck around anyway, just ask for an open relationship? I'm not sure how that's hard

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groovygardener42069 wrote

Autistic perspective here. Replying because you deleted that other comment, which I'm not sure if I was supposed to have taken offense to or not, honestly. Luckily I don't understand social cues so I'm going to annoy the fuck out of you either way.

This article seriously assumes a lot of shit that doesn't apply to everyone. I'm not sure I can try to explain to a neurotypical person what happens in my brain when someone I truly care about breaks my trust, but it's not pretty. Like, dissociation and depersonalization type of shit. Along with full blown paranoia fueled by the fact that I can't read anyone's social cues so I assume that everyone I meet is out to take advantage of me.

Of course, I know that neurotypicals are gonna be neurotypical, so I can't just force people to do things my way. I have to carefully select the people I let into my life on the mutual understanding that if they got my back with all the shit that comes with that, I got there's as well. So maybe my case is different in the fact at this point in my life, if someone very close to me breaks my trust or takes advantage of me, then they did so knowing full well that they took advantage of an autistic person who trusted them. I have to put more weight in my close relationships because it's a safety issue for me.

To answer your questions, in order:

Are you failing to see all the people here who point out that polyamory is a thing that exists, and that "dating around" is also a thing that exists?

I can't speak for anyone else, but my relationship with my wife isn't a contractual obligation. I feel bad for anyone who sees their relationships that way.

Maybe. I don't think pop psychology is a good baseline for gaining a legitimate understanding of most things, though.

One owes their word to the person they gave their word to, assuming that the relationship is built on equal footing.

I suppose if you're really -looking- for a reason to cheat, then unequal power dynamics within a relationship may justify "breach of contract." But I'd argue that a relationship seen as a contract is not a strong relationship at all.

Those made with whom we love, I hope. But again love isn't a contract and that's a really awful way to put it.

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groovygardener42069 wrote (edited )

I'm sorry but this is the dumbest fucking shit I've read all day and I go on Reddit sometimes

Just editing to add: intentionally breaking the trust of people you care for is shitty as hell. There's nothing revolutionary about that, it's just being an asshole.

I've cheated with people, and I didn't feel bad about it because I wasn't breaking anyone's trust.

But I get sad when I accidentally elbow my wife in the shower or step on the heel of her shoe when I'm walking behind her. I love her. My dog would sense that something is wrong between us and he would be sad. It would fucking suck.

I'm not here to moralize or nothing. It's just that I would truly rather not be around people who fetishize breaking the trust of those they love.

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groovygardener42069 OP wrote

We did our best to help some people out while we were downtown, I just didn't think that part was relevant to the story tbh

We were back in the area today and I chose not to go in there even though I really needed to use a bathroom

I spend... more money than I probably should at kava bars (I don't really go to alcohol bars) and I'm never going to that one again. I know that's probably not going to put them out of business but hey.

As I get older and actually start to meet and pay attention to the people who run local small businesses, I realize that most small business owners can also get fucked.

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