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autonomous_hippopotamus wrote

Cool, u/Tequila_Wolf I appreciate all the work you do keeping this place running, I am glad you've made use of this space, i know i've been pretty lazy as a mod, but i intend to be a bit more active in the near future.

As for w/Etiquette . I think it's a great idea and would be very helpful. I was thinking about this earlier: In real life organizing it's common to set out list of norms for engaging in productive conversation during a meeting or summit. . .

. . . of course these are all voluntary norms, not a ToS or anything, but if we establish a set of community norms on a cultural level it might make it easy to weed out trolls and wreckers.

Obviously we'd have have the standard rules: no sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia list... and maybe have a clause against petty language policing or baseless, derailing call-outs . . .

I need to get around to writing an article on Rogerian Argumentation, as it sets out some nice guidelines in engaging in respectful, productive debate.

Here's a short list of norms, just a draft, this should all be reworded to be as brief as possible

treat everyone with respect - ya know

Be Honest / practice radical honesty - Say what you think and what you feel, don't hide your intentions or hesitate to call out bullshit when you see it ( i don't know if i want to use that phrase as radical-honestyTM is basically a self-help cult)

Stay on topic - focus on the topic of the post and the purpose of the forum. While going on tangents sometimes is fine, but remember what you post on raddle is public and our conversations here are for the purpose of informing, educating and stimulating thought and debate.

Focus on what you have in common - clearly indicate where the person is correct and what you agree with them with, this provides a basis for building consensus and makes it easier to persuade people to your point of view, or agreeing to respectfully disagree.

Be open minded and anti-dogamtic - Be willing to admit when you are wrong, and engage in self-criticism. Don't assume you know everything, come with a willingness to question everything an learn something new. (by self-criticism i don't mean self-crit or gtfo! i mean a personal process of critical self-reflection, not the Maoist ritual of humiliating confession and self-flagulation.)

Speak to people as comrades

Make an effort to read and understand other people's arguments - make a sincere attempt to learn where the other person is coming from.

Separate the argument from the person / Don't make personal Attacks / Give people the benefit of the doubt - just because someone has flawed views does not mean they are a crypto nazi or something, debate people in a respectful way. We have all held shitty views, if you disagree with someone explain to them why and how they are mistaken, and provide resources for them to educate themselves.

Provide Citations when possible - Show your work, if you are aware of something most people don't know, show people where you got it from, explain the reasoning behind your opinions so other people can see where you're coming from.

Don't snitch Jacket, or make baseless accusations - We will inevitably encounter fake accounts, reactionary infiltrators etc. Accusing everyone you don't like of being a nazi-sock-puppet or agent provocateur is not helpful and contributes to an environment of hostility and paranoia. If someone is a infiltrator they will reveal themselves eventually. ( i don't know quite how to say this, maybe this is a few different rules, i want to say something about baseless accusations while also respecting people's freedom to make call-outs when they are warranted, idfk im not a lawyer . . . )

Don't Take shit personally - don't waste everyone's times personal disagreements and petty emotional arguments. Personal rivalries and dislikes are unavoidable, but we can deal with these problems without embarassing ourselves or wasting other people's time. In most cases, respecfully disagreeing while avoiding personal attacks will do, if you can't stand someone, Avoiding people and mantaining a respectful distance quashes a beef. Alfredo Bonanno said something like "You don't have to like someone to have affinity with them."

Don't talk out your ass - If you haven't researched something, don't speak as if you are an expert or spread false information. Be honest about your level of understanding, If someone more knowledgeable than you corrects you, you should either concede you were mistaken or at least explain your disagreement respectfully.

( Mao had the slogan 'No Investigation, No right to Speak' but fuck him, people still have the right to speak but everyone is subject to accountability . )

Don't *splain - if you are not gay/tran/black/etc. to speak as an authority over people who are gay/trans/black/etc. that doesn't mean you can't have an opinion or express disagreement, this just means show deference to those who are personally effected by certain issues.

Avoid Sectarianism (except against tankies) - There are a wide range of revolutionary schools, traditions, tendencies and sects, you can't assume your tendency is necessarily the correct one on every issue, and we must accept there are certain positions on which every tendency will not budge. Let's try to cut down on sectarian shit talking and arguments that go nowhere. Also fuck tankies.

Fuck tankies - jk but not really

Thanks for reading, i'll try to work someone more concrete over the next week or so there's something solid to go on the wiki.

Any suggestions/criticisms are very welcome.

Note: the final form of the "norms" shouldn't be this wordy, i just wanted to give a clear idea of the intent of the norms.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Hi autonomous_hippopotamus, sorry I've taken so long to reply here.

Personally I think that the w/Etiquette page should be as short as possible so that people actually read it. I'd welcome the addition of a concentrated version of at least some of what's been said here, but I'm definitely not able to do that work.

If you're interested in taking this further, please make a post about it in f/wiki linking to w/Etiquette and your comment here to see what people think! It's not a locked page and so anyone can edit it. It'd be a good opportunity for people to be exposed to its existence, too.