Submitted by rattledlove1139 in tidymess1139

Want to say upfront not everyone can be completely utterly vegan, so worldwide veganism isn't just solution. Some reasons:

  • eating disorders, either like mine (ARFID) or not. People with ARFID have extreme difficulty with eat and nutrition, because sensory difficulties and horrible physical reactions, or not able see food as edible. People with other eating disorders may find veganism trigger relapse, especially orthorexia. Orthorexia means obsession over monitoring and eating in "purest cleanest" way which leads to lot of self neglect and feelings of guilt. Someone prone to orthorexia may be more easy triggered by veganism because veganism may need more monitoring to ensure proper nutrition. That is true for any kind of diet but veganism is focus here.
  • food limitations even without eating disorder, like allergies, intolerances, and medical diets. Soy, nuts, gluten, all very common in vegan products, also all very common intolerance. Working around more than one especially hard and expensive, not even count for substitute meats that may help people eat "familiar" while change diets.
  • medications and supplements, sort of like above, common vegan foods can interact with medications or cancel out their effect. But even if popular vegan food do not interact directly with medications, some needed supplements can have horrible side effects that could endanger if already deal with complications. Iron supplements can make constipated - that is not good deal with if already difficult clear bowels. B12 supplements can cause fast heartbeat - some people already have enough heart troubles so this could threaten life.
  • lack food access, like living in place without much or any way grow food, or not able prepare meals with available food. Time and money obvious factors, but even in ideal world still disabled people to think about. Pre packaged food and frozen dinners can sometimes be only choice for disabled person, especially if live without caregiver. Even then every disabled person i know say they LIKE to have things they can make for self, and that usually is something very simple that just put in oven or microwave and add personal touch. Caregiver can not always do everything, they need care for self too. Location also very important, because some places not have enough good quality land to grow on, or weather conditions to support plant. Communities like that rely on transport of food grown other places, but that can make VERY expensive - personally hunting becomes very important part in feed.

So what do I think??

  • I like ideas in gardens and food forests, both personal and for community. I want more food to be local as possible, to know who planted and harvested and not hurt or forced doing it. If food not from within community then i want to know transport workers also treated well.
  • I want food preservation methods be popular with everyone again! Off season food take much more to grow than in season food, either because greenhouses or farther away places. To eat through winter time without this means more people preserve foods while in season. This large scale food "waste" ridiculous - preserve preserve preserve, or give direct back to nature and animals. Also ways to prepare and eat less popular parts, so long as still actually safely edible.
  • I want far less animal foods, even if can never totally die out because not everyone able safely reject for good, and in hands of community, doing only what community need and in ways least cruel to animals. People who able to severely reduce or reject, I think that IS wonderful because animal farming takes up much land and water and feed, and fishing also make devastation.
  • I do not understand much about meat grown in labs but i am not opposed to ideas like that if can do with less earthly harm than even cleanest and least cruel methods involving live animals. (So not comparison to now - imagine would be better by FAR compare to now)
  • I want easy choices still to exist for disabled people but i do not know yet how should look, who would make and provide. Again freezer meals and pre packaged food can be only way someone eats without aid. I do not like how much plastic involved and if that somehow change would be very nice. When i say easy choices i also mean things people call "lazy" like pre-peeled oranges put into plastic, or pre-arranged salads sold in containers. Things like this exist for people without hand dexterity, vision, or other abilities which need to peel or safely cut food.

Suffering is not main metric i use because really is baked into whole system right now. I think most about planet health and having respect, maybe pick up on that if you see my talks about objects too.
Animals feel pain, humans feel pain, plants and root systems may too in way we don't understand because not same as us. Planet also badly impact with how farming methods right now work, both animal and plant, and so much food transport. I think look first and foremost at suffering just not great metric or bring up everything needing change.
I hope all that make sense and maybe i have put some things to think about in head :)

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Majrelende wrote (edited )

I have some experience with communal cooking. Everyone's dietary needs were taken into account in the process, and a small rotating group would take care of the cooking, making it possibly a very ethical and sustainable option. I think I remember Kropotkin promoted it in opposition to restaurants.

Prepackaged food is not really eating without aid because someone had to make and package the food, and thus someone is aiding, whether one comes into contact with them or not. On the other hand, people used to use birch bark for this purpose in place of plastic, which also slowed decay, reducing the need for refrigeration. I think there is much creativity that is possible in this manner.

Much of modernity seems to be based on the illusion of self-sufficiency, which sounds ridiculous at first, but I think it is true. People try so hard to do things by themselves, and that means lots of machines, mechanisation of everything, but however much we don't want to bother or deal with other people we never were meant to do things all by ourselves. I think so much has to do with the horrific interpersonal relations that come with civilisation, the oppression and inequalities and power dynamics present in almost every interaction. Even as a mostly able person (not without problems, but still) I don't see how I (or most people) could honestly live entirely self-sufficiently like modernity seems to suggest in an illusory fashion, except maybe the "man of the hole" or similarly skilled.

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rattledlove1139 OP wrote

Prepackaged food is not really eating without aid because someone had to make and package the food, and thus someone is aiding, whether one comes into contact with them or not.

That is true, sorry for confusion in words! Suppose i really mean at-home preparation part is "without aid" - like i say, caregivers can not always do things, and some people unlucky enough live without enough (or any) caregiver support in first place. Easier manage eat if something pre-peeled is sold/given as is or something just go in microwave for a few minutes.

People try so hard to do things by themselves, and that means lots of machines, mechanisation of everything, but however much we don't want to bother or deal with other people we never were meant to do things all by ourselves.

yesss. I think also bit of that in what i say above - disabled people get look down on for dependence so lots us seek out ways to have little bit independence. Most everyone wants to do some things for themself, but especially especially if everyone else says you're useless because can't do this or that. Things prepared in advance and simple to cook, or simple to put together, or anything, can be really key in feel accomplished (even if very small) and even take some stress off of caregivers.

i think if less stigma and more honesty about dependence, would still be important have things we can try without direct/at-home aid, but would not feel like crush whole character or make "useless".

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Majrelende wrote

Thank you for your thoughts, and you don't need to be sorry about my confusion. It was thought-provoking, and I can also be a pedantic about these things and not pay enough attention to the original meaning. Maybe I will write a post on its own about interdependence/independence. It's probably too much to put down here.

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Bezotcovschina wrote

On one hand, Militant Veganism and Animal/Earth Liberation are very appealing concepts for me. On the other hand, I don't think I have a right to speak down to people clearly caring about the planet, but, for objective reasons, not excluding animal products from their consumption right now but aspiring to. Because, as I said, my own modes of consumption are not ideal and drawing lines between categorical meanings and proclaiming what feels pain and what is not is not my strongest part. I can't give plausible explanation for myself if it's ok to eat mussels or not. Same with industrial agriculture I'm for sure supporting monetary. For me it's easy to avoid animal products. For me it should be harder to avoid industrial agriculture but not impossible, however greatly inconvenient. But for some people it really is impossible for good reasons.

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