Submitted by lettuceLeafer in thoughts

I'm not taking down the commenter specifically though I ron like the comment I just want to talk about a mindset I've seen often that I don't like.

When I see these comments deriding people for not doing crime when they say the risks aren't worth the benefit seems really toxic. Like crime is cool but can we like not shame people for not doing crime? Do crime if you want but let's no shame people for not doing specific when a raddle user says they don't want to do it for personal reasons.

Like who knows why this person chose to not do shoplifting. Maybe they smuggle migrants and if they got arrested it would cause cops to look into their occupation and possible cause others to get deported. Maybe they are a single parent and if they get arrested their kid will loose their only parent. Or maybe it's none of these and they just don't want to risk going to jail or being fined just to save a couple hundred dollars. The thing is u don't know and we shouldn't pry to learn.

This thing where people try to peer pressure others to do petty crimes comes of as kinda toxicity masculine dick measuring contest but with crime. If someone decided the crime might not better their life let them live their life. Like fucking hell

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Passive_Nihlist wrote

This I think is especially a lesson that can be taken from Nihlism, or as A! specified strategic Nihlism. There aren't any grand plans that are going to help us. Offering to teach others skills/offering info on how to do things may be useful, but (and I think this is especially applicable to the idea of illegalism) the pushing of people to participate in these activities, especially through the notion of reproducibility, I think is very harmful. Especially since in many cases the doing of the act (its reproduction of itself) takes over the reason anyone did it in the first place.

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

Uh oh the Anarcho dorks have started down voting. Lol

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Passive_Nihlist wrote

Eh the whole up vote down vote thing is stupid anyway. It seems no one uses it for the purpose of it anyways (whether something contributes to the conversation). I'm much more concerned with comments, people starting a conversation about the ideas and I think the up vote down vote hurts that. Even someone commenting "fuck you you're dumb" you can respond to asking why but a down vote is just a silent "I disagree" and moving on. Similar to the point made in "Green Nihlism or Cosmic Pessimism".

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

yeah If I get better at coding removing the upvote downvote button is one of the top things I would try on raddle

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Passive_Nihlist wrote

That would be interesting to see, though I'm more in the vein of trying to move away from the internet then changing it. Thus my move away from learning coding and not trying to offer this as any sort of real suggestion. I more just mean to point out the ways the structures (including digital structures) influence our thoughts and behaviors. The text Caught in the Web covers this. But this obviously goes far beyond just up votes and down votes, and in many ways the very nature of online spaces seems to degrade the possibility for sincerity, not that other techs like books or radio don't also do this, but that the internet is the newest manifestation.

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

Everything you said I agree with though I like the internet a lot so personally I'm not interested at all in moving away from it. For many that is a good idea though

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Passive_Nihlist wrote

Do you mind me asking what about the internet makes you not want to move away from it?

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote (edited )

The I internet has made my life better in so many ways. I grew up in a poor rural area so without the internet I would prob still be stuck being the equivalent of a modern day serf with few friends and never learning about stuff like queerness, anti authoritarianism or mutual aid. I have gained so much in so many ways an continue to do so. Without the internet I would loose out on so many benefits in my life.

Oh God don't even get me started on toxic masculinity and feminism. Without learning so much in the internet I would have been so much whittier to women in my life.

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kin wrote

Good that we acknowledged this situation, maybe I missed the comment you are talking about but if came from outside f/illegalism shame on us, Raddle know better

For some time I thought you had the opposite argument, but I think this is due my poor english/ interpretation skills and your sarcasm and witty interactions.

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote (edited )

It's not super frequent but it does happen. Like some commenter got really mad at me when I said ai wasn't going to breach the contract I signed with Amazon to not reveal certain secrets about how it is run. Like sorry that I don't want to be sued and loose all my money so you can know a little more about how amazon is run.

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kin wrote

Yeah, sometimes this edgy peer pressure is pointless and damaging... Is not like you are the key to dismantle the empire. That's why I really appreciate your views on veganism for example, vegan proselytism just for the moral sake of it is pointless.

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

thanks, I was kinda wondering if my newish ideas around veganism had some validity as I've never really seen anyone with a viewpoint similar to mine. Which is a shame because I view animal liberation ideas really important and am deeply saddened that there isn't much positive change being done on the grand scale.

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kin wrote

Perhaps one day you write a good summary of your ideas around veganism. Sure I would like to read this one

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

I don't even think I have that much to say. This says most stuff with a few other things. https://raddle.me/f/Vegan/132105/why-i-m-vegan-tirade-it-s-way-different-than-most-people-on

I would say initially for me at least when I believed veganism would actually materially help animals it was more about me needing a crutch to believe that I had a may to stop stuff I don't like rather than it actually working. Once I got to the mental point where I could process and look at evidence more objectively I didn't see it as making much sense. I still liked the ideas of veganism so I kept doing it. I didn't really didn't like the concept of eating animals so I stopped. I think my ideas of culture kinda explain why I kept being vegan.

I'm pretty critical of methods that can't materially prove it causing change. And especially the big movements which try to change the world rather than change local environment. though if I had some evidence that I found making sense that veganism could change how many animals where killed I prob would do it as its a issue I really care about.

I think food has a lot of emotional regulative ability and use as a coping mechanism. For me I didn't struggle much getting rid of the emotional coping mechanisms like cheese meat ect was prob largely due to me making a lot of positive changes in my life and doing a lot of drugs to feel good. So I think for many going vegan is a lot harder than many make out. Life is hell and getting rid of one of the few daily comforts is pretty hard. So if you want people to be vegan working to make peoples lives less shit and having the materially position to learn how to cope with delicious vegan food rather than animal products. Which can be hard. So being compashionate and making peoples lives materially better and help show how veganism can easily replace their coping food is a pretty good method.

I think mainstream vegan ideas are actually kinda antithetical to what I desire for animals so I find many vegans to have cultural ideas that I find quite harmful in a similar way to eating meat. I.e. the idea that the issue of taking away animals autonomy is bad because they are treated badly rather than robbed of their autonomy. So my veganism is kinda against the mainstream vegan opinion in that way. If you don't eat animal products but don't have a problem with controlling animals in a nice way I find the veganism quite unhelpful if not harmful. As it puts a nicer face on anti animal liberation efforts. Though I would be far more happy if most people are vegan in the mainstream way than the mainstream view of being ok with consuming animal products.

idk, I think that covers most of my opinions. I don't really have that much tbh. Though my opinions usually come out through discussion and if I have to write like an argumentative paper I often miss some of the the things I believe. Though I think this comment and that post gets like 80% of my vegan takes.

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kin wrote

Not sure if I disappointed you in my response there, I think we both agree in lots of points surround veganism. My issue with the whole cheese stealing is posing this a vegan practice, but now, to be honest I don't have the arguments to prove that the impact of stealing cheese is detrimental or not to animal welfare.

Maybe veganism is one of that ideas that will always be liberal and never get the ideology right for a more libertarian approach. Is veganism as a ideology worth of saving? Maybe. If we can get ride of the cheap morality and Anthropocentrism.

Like I have a very unpopular take against vegans owning pets and riding horses. And this can lead to some wild discussion around social interactions, parenting, and primitivism.

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote (edited )

My issue with the whole cheese stealing is posing this a vegan practice, but now, to be honest I don't have the arguments to prove that the impact of stealing cheese is detrimental or not to animal welfare.

If I rem ber correctly I was the only one who might have argued that cheese stealing might be a good vegan idea. So if others Aries this I'm not def being their point. Me personally I wouldn't consider cheese stealing to be a great vegan idea but I was more trying to compromise and critique anti cheese stealing from many peoples vegan viewpoint. Like if you can around enticing producers to not do something through market forces wouldn't stealing their products be a lot better disencentive rather than not buying the product? I don't believe it's a good idea but it was a question posed so I could understand while others believe stealing cheese wouldn't provide a strong disencentive to produce cheese.

It was more a method to understand their r seining and critique their position from a different angle than an actual thing I believe. To clarify I'm not going to o go pick wise someone for stealing cheese I just mostly don't care tbh. Ig ideally they wouldn't steal cheese but I dislike it far less than most of the anti cheese stealers.

Maybe veganism is one of that ideas that will always be liberal

I don't know think it matters if it is liberal or not. I more ask if veganism helps further my desires. It kinda did but kinda didn't so I contorted the liberal idea so it furthers my desires more. So I think veganism can be helpful even liberal veganism to a certain standpoint. Though it's helpfulness is quite limited.

Like I have a very unpopular take against vegans owning pets and riding horses

Now I don't know the take on pets exactly but I'm guessing it's similar to mine. Which is against owning pets and having a mutual relationship based on consensus. Kinda like how strays interact with humans rather than how humans tr at the pets they own. Animals being individuals with autonomy rather than being controlled.

I think this is a discussion that brings up a discussion really highlighting the difference of liberal veganism and more radical take on animal liberty. Actually I've had really cool discussion with liberal vegans about being against ownership of animals entirely on Reddit. I posted a thread about it on raddle an people in engaged with it. My take has gotten a lot more positive reception than I would have thought.

U didn't disappoint me I liked ur response.

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kin wrote

You guessed right about the pet issue. I don't understand tutoring a domestic animal to be alined with my views on the animal liberation.

When I refer to Liberal veganism is in the sense that I want my position to be a strong one in the philosophical sense (maybe understanding Stirner and nihilism better). Like if I reject the idea of human "rights" as a liberal construct, maybe animal "rights" will follow and I will start advocating for Liberation instead. It's working in progress right now, so no definitive answers here.

I also consider the category of "shoplifting" within the realm of Consumerism. For me the transgression represented by stealing from a shop is already coopted/recuperated, but this does not advocate against shoplifting imo, just invite for amore deep conversation on insurrection and illegalism. The same with boycotting and other attempts to harm the industry.

I more ask if veganism helps further my desires. I

I liked this, maybe is what I am trying to do, or better what I should pay more attention.

Anarchists always will mess around with societal taboos. Maybe this issue is only a "issue" bc of our culture

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

also consider the category of "shoplifting" within the realm of consumerism

Yeah anarchist projects are so much stronger when less reliant on statism. Shoplifting makes a project reliant on corporations existence when in reality the best long term solution is to be independent of corporations existence. As shoplifting provides incentive to maintain a companies existsnc to those who benefit from shoplifting.

Shoplifting and theft is a short term practice for those who are downtrodden and a less than idea way to deal with things.

Anarchists making food in a decentralized manner is far more preferred to stealing food. But I have nothing against stealing other than saying that it isn't the end goal or goal if not necessary.

I agree with u basically on everything u said.

Anarchists always will mess around with societal taboos. Maybe this issue is only a "issue" bc of our culture

Tho I don't quite understand this bit. Would you mind trying to make this point in a different way?

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kin wrote

Maybe this is my own definition of anarchism, as being oppose to any form of coercion thus being marginal and prone to taboo - imagining taboo as something that goes against the stablished moral.

What Im trying to say here is that this issue around food and how to obtain food is just a issue bc our culture is carnist and treat food as a commodity, not a necessary condition for biological forms to be alive and well. We block the free access to food and water and we create a scheme where you find difficult to procure nourishment outside it.

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