Before anything, let's discuss /f/shoplifting

Submitted by mofongo admin in meta

As you all know there is an understandable request to have /f/shoplifting deleted for the horrible and indefensible actions some of its members have committed.

Some have reservation that it's good idea for several reasons. Among them is wether collective punishment is fair, if deleting the forum will actually help to stop the harassment or worse increase it.

So, before enacting any final decisions, let's discuss things. I would specially like to hear about those affected if they would consider any alternative reparations.

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Comments

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ziq wrote (edited )

Why do we think shoplifters are going to suddenly develop praxis if we force herd them into f/illegalism or f/theft?

How would f/illegalism have a different culture if the people that use it are all from f/shoplifting? There are obviously no anarchists using f/illegalism since it's dead, so all we'd be doing is turning that radical politics forum into f/shoplifting2.

Why would titan stop sending his abusive pms if the lifters are just redirected to another forum on the site?

Even if we banned everyone on the site from talking about theft altogether and deleted f/illegalism and f/theft too, why would a fascist stop his harassment campaign? He does it because he's a hateful fascist, not because he shoplifts.

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black_fox wrote (edited )

i don’t think anyone is saying it’s a silver bullet, but migrating them elsewhere will definitely help.

edit: elsewhere meaning, off Raddle

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ziq wrote (edited )

There's no reason to assume it would stop bigots from making accounts to harass people. It would help set a precedent for excluding non-anarchists from the site. But idk that that's desirable.

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black_fox wrote (edited )

There's no reason to assume it would stop bigots from making accounts to harass people.

sure, agreed. but the forum also attracts people who are also bigots.

It would help set a precedent for excluding non-anarchists from the site.

i don’t think anyone’s saying ban all liberals or whoever, at least i’m not.

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thebigoof wrote

Yeah, not sure what this has to do with non-anarchists, because I'll treat anarchists like this too if they send threats to trans women.

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grzer wrote

You'll delete all of f/anarchism if someone from there is sending threats?

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thebigoof wrote

So yes, I'll burn your 'home' to the ground if it develops a culture of rape threats and harassing trans women.

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thebigoof wrote (edited )

No, I'll treat you like how I treat them.

If this place turned into that I'd honestly just ddos it.

So, actually, yeah maybe.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

If somebody has the energy, taking the time to explain why this is even being considered is important, because people looking at this thread currently don't have enough information. Most of the anarchists don't have enough information so I imagine the shoplifters are almost completely misinformed.

I will try to put together a full response to all this when I get a chance.

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mofongo OP wrote (edited )

TitanOfThieves, Fuck_me_for_giving_and_shit and others have taken upon themselves to send rape threats, doxx threats, murder threats to transfemme users of our site, including creating accounts targeting them.

In order to feel accepted and respected on Raddle they have requested removal of this sub (among other things) because it is considered unlikely those users would have found or dedicated themselves to this without /f/shoplifting attracting them to return.

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NoShame wrote

Can we reverse the tables on those threatening our users? Email the abuse departments for their ISP. Publicly shame them. If need be create a twitter account and doxx them. I am sure if they are toxic here they are also toxic in real.

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ziq wrote

He used his real ip once and we figured out the name and location of his real estate company. Stay tuned.

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NoShame wrote

Do you have a list of all the people involved? Is this the work of one bad actor using alts?

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emma wrote

Decided I'm going to weigh in on this.

Deleting /f/shoplifting to stop the harassment hinges on the idea that the harassers are going to stop once that forum's gone, and that's a notion I find absurd. Trolls have found their way to Raddle from day one, and as long as this is an open space on the public internet, new trolls are going to find their way here, especially as long as controversial politics and members of vulnerable communities have a prominent presence.

I also don't support turning the site into an invite-only walled garden or whatever, although I certainly think it could be useful for some forums in order to maintain safe spaces.

All this said, I do believe /f/shoplifting brings little or no good to the site. I think the goal should be to have that forum moved to a site maintained by someone in the entitlement shoplifting community.

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ziq wrote

Thanks for weighing in. I hope more trans women give their perspective too.

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throwaway wrote

One issue I have with this though, is that with this attitude, one single malicious user could get entire subs closed if we use this approach. Collective punishment is a bad strategy.

Sadly, I don't know what else we could do about it, so I have no solutions to propose. Obviously it's an issue that should be solved for good, they've been some serious assholes lately.

I'm not sure what to do about it, but I feel like this isn't an optimal solution. Perhaps there is none.

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ziq wrote (edited )

You're absolutely right and most of the people making troll accounts clearly just want to create chaos so they can enjoy watching the resulting panic.

It's suddenly become taboo to say it because of hasbro's thread, but this is collective punishment and there's zero indication it's even going to work to stop liberals from coming to the site (which is clearly the goal here, let's be honest with ourselves).

I'm not sure what to do about

Honestly, we've done everything we possibly can. We added new functions to disable pms and block entire forums, we banned more than 100 accounts, we harvested titan's IP addresses and made them public, we added several new mods to the forum and gave them free reign to ban and censor anything they want. I stickied a thread with alternatives to ableist words and told them they'd be banned if they didn't comply (even as anarchists on the site continued to use the same words). We now ban new shoplifter accounts on sight if the usernames even seem like the kind of usernames Titan would possibly think of.

The collective anger towards the admins for "not protecting trans femmes" as we literally pour all our free time into doing just that will continue no matter how much we labor to trying to make the place "safe".

This is a public, open website with an .onion address. There is nothing more we can do to stop shit people from sending pms other than what we already do everyday. It feels like the only thing that will satisfy n_n and co is for us to make the site invite-only (which has been suggested by ppl in the chat). This would turn raddle into something it was never meant to be - a private chat room for a handful of friends.

Raddle was designed as an open platform for wide-ranging discussion, but with anti-opression safeguards written into the ToS and anarchist principles used to manage things.

Collective punishment, secret courts (the chat room), vicious struggle sessions to brand anarchists who disagree with your tactics as bigots and fascists, banning incredibly common everyday words like "lame" (which no anarchist site does - only tankie reddit subs) and gatekeeping (going invite-only) are not anarchist principles.

I've said all this before and I'm saying it again and you can proceed however you want, but don't expect me to pull the trigger when you implement these authoritarian policies. The other admins can do it.

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n_n wrote

It feels like the only thing that will satisfy n_n and co

You have a fixation with me for some weird reason. I have my own opinions and others have their own opinion and ways to solve things. I posted my opinion in the chat and I post it again here. Keep talking about imaginary vanguards, you are making a fool of yourself.

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[deleted] 0 wrote

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lori wrote

As long as they are incredibly active as to be there when important conversations happen, and are willing to use software that requires Javscript and has had security breaches very recently.

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meowmarx wrote

I totally depend on threads like this to figure out how to fit in to this community. It’s a strange outsider experience. Familiar and uncomfortable.

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ziq wrote

I've been boycotting the chat rooms to force meta conversations to happen here where everyone can participate.

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heckthepolice2 wrote

This isn't about collective punishment, it's about the fact that f/shoplifting has consistently bred a toxic culture that creates a lot of hostility against everyone else on raddle and has led to some of our most vulnerable users being repeatedly harrassed. f/shoplifting users who aren't bigots will be perfectly welcome to continue using the site and to discuss shoplifting in other forums. The fundamental problem, as I understand it at least, is that f/shoplifting has become this very insular community seperate from the rest of raddle where most people aren't interested in any of the actual reasons this site exists. They just expect it to be another reddit. Creating a space where queer and trans (and especially trans femme) folks can feel safe is way more important than keeping that forum. There are a lot more places online where you can ask for boosting advice than there are places where trans people don't face constant harrassment.

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NoShame wrote

I agree with this. f/shoplifting has its own toxic culture and something drastic needs to be installed to change the mindset or force toxic people to leave.

I would rather lose 100 shoplifters than lose one marginalized member.

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db_cooper wrote

There are a lot more places online where you can ask for boosting advice than there are places where trans people don't face constant harassment.

Honestly, that is entirely hinged on your definition of harassment. For most trans people, they are going to risk facing "harassment" basically any moment spent out and in the public eye, including on the internet. I don't understand what you expect anyone to be able to do about that. We can't banhammer away thousands of years of socio-religious programming and toxic masculinity.

I can't believe a bunch of supposed anarchists, free thinkers, alleged believers in solidarity, are suggesting we ban such a powerfully anti-capitalist tool. There is literally no meaningful way to reject capitalism, to show distaste towards it, and to upset it's reign of terror besides shoplifting. It's a effective direct action technique that is striking your ideological mortal enemies in their only exposed area. This is a more important goal than shielding a few transpeople from seeing a couple mean words in their inbox.

We are talking about war against fascism, corporatism, and economic inequality. We are fighting it on the most common battleground, one that exists across every city, every state, every nation. Shoplifting is a tool for the common people to silently make their voice heard. Just delete the fucking messages. Why don't we just implement a wait time before you can post or PM after registering, and then ban this clown based on his signup patterns? He isn't some genius hacker breaching numerous layers of security, he is a childish bootlicking spammer waltzing thru our currently undermanned gates.

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ziq admin wrote (edited )

You're not helping with your class reductionism. 4 day ban for diminishing oppression faced by trans people / brocialism.

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thebigoof wrote

I don't understand what you expect anyone to be able to do about that. We can't banhammer away thousands of years of socio-religious programming and toxic masculinity.

Yeah, especially when cowards like you make excuses for it.

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NoShame wrote

Can we not ban an IP range? Force any new account registrations from a certain geographic area to email to have an account approved.

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happy wrote

What about a long temporary freeze on f/shoplifting? (Does postmill have that capibility?)

I think its incredibly reactionary to delete an entire community because some users were bad. Its a more complicated situation because its the reason why these terrible users are staying which is why a freeze might be better. A freeze will also keep all of the wikis and information that members have contributed over time and keep it accessible.

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mofongo OP wrote

What about a long temporary freeze on f/shoplifting? (Does postmill have that capibility?)

It doesn't have this function, yet.

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[deleted] 0 wrote (edited )

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happy wrote

Reactionary in that "There are these people we dont like so lets get rid of their home."

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NoShame wrote

It's not a matter of not liking them. They are openly harassing and threatening members that we need to stand up for.

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[deleted] 0 wrote (edited )

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happy wrote

Sure, its definitely not the same. I just think its bad praxis, especially coming from anarchists.

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[deleted] 0 wrote

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happy wrote

Im not trying to defend them and i dont want them here either. Total deletion might have to be the solution, but its an incredibly authoritarian choice. I think options should be explored before making a decision that will effect the credibility of the anarchist philosophy that the admins of this website hold.

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[deleted] 0 wrote (edited )

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happy wrote

Im really curious about your account being created a year ago but you didnt start posting until today?

If youre not going to listen to my concerns and just call me a liar im not going to give you my attention.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

Can the queers most directly affected by this please weigh in. If you don't want to post publicly, please send me a PM.

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rot wrote

I oppose deleting /shoplifting.

the sub seems fine if there are problems with users its those users who have to be dealt with on an individual basis. A dedicated shoplifting sub is good for bringing new people to raddle who are looking for shoplifting tips

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Fossidarity wrote

Isn't anyone from /f/shoplifting willing to host their own Postmill instance like /u/emma suggested on the meta chat? I think this would solve most of the problems we're currently having with the conflicts between the communities.

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black_fox wrote (edited )

we will get trolls either way. f/shoplifting encourages them to stay. the harm its users have caused transfemmes on the site is worth nuking it in my opinion.

there are other Reddit alternatives and there are already other shoplifting forums elsewhere. that aside, hosting is cheap and Postmill is free.

the whining and creating troll accounts since this discussion has started only shows their true colors again and their entitlement.

in regards to collective punishment, obviously good users can stay and use f/illegalism (which needs mods if this is going to happen). wanna-be landlords and people complaining about political correctness can go elsewhere.

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NoShame wrote

What is the primary mission of Raddle? If the primary is this: Raddle is managed according to libertarian anarchist concepts in order to provide the best experience to its users. I would assume the users are those that actively contribute in a positive manner. If that is the case then those that are marginalized need to speak up and vote on what makes them feel the most safe.

I would vote to delete the sub. There will likely be a period of chaos but in the end those that are a disrupting the well being of others will move on.

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ziq wrote

This isn't a vote, just a discussion. Ultimately we'll likely end up doing what the people actually affected by the oppression decide. Still waiting for them to comment.

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mofongo OP wrote (edited )

One already did, I don't think the rest will considering they view the decision as final.

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ziq wrote

what decision?

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mofongo OP wrote

Their decision to have /f/shoplifting removed.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Who made the decision? I've only seen one trans woman in this thread. I thought we were waiting to hear from more?

Edit: oh you mean hasbrochem? He's a cis man and n_n is non binary. The only trans woman who has weighed in is amongstclouds afaik.

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n_n wrote (edited )

n_n is non binary

I'm trans nonbinary. And I didn't propose the deletion.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

i would like to say that as a side note, i am wondering if anyone has any objections to me staying as a mod on any boards. I have been told there are reservations about me continuing to mod, and i dont think its a good idea for me to continue if there are concerns about me doing so. so please feel free to pm admins, me, or post in this thread if you have concerns, i am happy to be transparent and honest about having accountability for me in the position i am in from the raddle forum community. i have tried to be genuine and sincere in my commitment to the shared ideals of the forum in my modding capacity, but i have also gotten into some arguments with people and i want there to be space for people to air their concerns with my delegated position of responsibility. Thanks

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mofongo OP admin wrote

I've never heard anything against you being a mod or your modding style. I certainly don't, so I wouldn't worry about it. Specially since I think you're doing great with the tools you have available.

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mofongo OP wrote

I mean, I made this thread specifically something you said in another one really got to me.

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NoShame wrote

What was the catalyst that started all of this?

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ziq wrote

White cishet men were invented.

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n_n wrote (edited )

I already gave my suggestion in the chat, so I will going to post it again with some edits:

In my opinion, admins should have the capacity to mod correctly. They need to be able to keep the situation to where they're comfier with how much they can handle. If there is to much pressure at a given moment they need to have the power to slow down the flood until the situation can be manageable. If there is nobody to mod at a given time, then Raddle shouldn't let new accounts to do whatever they want. The problem seems that arise more at those moments. I'm still maintain that the problem is structural. the brunt of moderation seems to be made by the admins when it should be by the Mods, also new users shouldn't have the capacity to create new forums without approval, and forums should have an active moderator to let people comment/post in these. I think that he best is to have fewer forums with more mods in my opinion.

Also we should make a procedure to deal with this thing like to avoid panic in the user etiquette, there are many bad faith personal attacks and make users resentful between each other. The ToS should be have a section of words to avoid. I think that the conclusion that we reach with the word "cuck" was good, we should expand to others. In my opinion there are social accepted because they are normalized, if you don't challenge the normalization they won't stop of being socially acceptable. Making excuse to keep this discrimination is not a way of show solidarity with marginalized groups. Other socially accepted words are "that's gay", "bitch/bitching", "motherfucker", "chick", "crazy", "mad", "hysterical", etc. There should not be double standards, so I think that we should discuss them all. Try to make the site more appealing for discussion and not for trolling and bad faith attitudes, trolling and low effort comments should be left to forums that are for that, like f/memer, f/meta_, etc. Language bot was really good to out reactionaries because they keep using abusive language. It was improving a lot also. I wish that u/Fossidary put them to work again. With the latest changes in how approach things it could help a lot.

We should try to avoid the model of other social sites like Reddit. And try to work with what we have and improve the base community instead of open the gate to everyone. When the level of trolling is high we should be able to close the gate to keep the site from collapse. The Chappo incident show us this. Open when we feel that we can handle if admins are burn out and feel that they can handle the level of trolling then make the site invitation only until they rest. Or try to make temporal restrictions to new accounts, at least in problematic forums like f/shotlifting. Or when the level of trolling is high. This are some thoughts that I have from the top of my head.

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mofongo OP wrote

Most of these are technical solutions, we have to wait until emma or someone else implements them to the code.

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n_n wrote (edited )

I know, I just want to left something here since I don't have the energy to continue to argue on the issue.

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Rogue wrote

I think it would greatly assist the community in formulating and posting their opinions if some clarifications were made.

• Did the members who are the recipients of the direct harassment have previous interactions with Titan et al? In no way am I justifying, condoning, sympathizing with or for bigots, the screencaps provided by u/mofongo are utterly contemptible and stomach churning. AFAIK or how it can be interpreted is there is an MO to harass specific users, aside from Titan and the rest, have there been other members specifically from shoplifting targeting the trans community as a whole?

There are specific members who can be rather abrasive when confronting a user about the initial transgression and then relentlessly follow the user’s submission activity and say things to the effect of “Shut the fuck up”, “you don’t matter”, etc. Is there not an appropriate forum for confronting someone and handling the issue, like f/mediation or f/ToSBreaches? While the confronter may have valid points, they are only exacerbating fires for mods to put out and either knowingly or unknowingly making it “personal” to the offender -who will then use every shitty word and action in their big playbook of bigotry to seek vengeance? Again, not justifying those who decide harassment or bigotry is the answer, just saying that retaliation of provocations aren’t exclusive to shoplifters alone.

At the moment I have no clear cut opinion to voice on the Fuck, Marry, Kill situation but I opine that unfortunately, whether f/shoplifting remains, migrates to f/illegalism, or another site altogether, those who have made a point of it to habitually abuse the trans community have found it “enjoyable” (ugh) enough that it became its own activity aside from f/shoplifting, just another thing on the “to do list”, if that make sense?

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[deleted] 0 wrote (edited )

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Rogue wrote

I’m not asking anything of or from you.

Simply pointing out relentlessly harassing and devaluing a questionable, possibly ignorant person (for whatever reason like ESL) or bringing to their attention and utilizing the forums made for addressing the issue(s) is comparing it to what differentiates a BBQ Becky from a “this isn’t an area designated for charcoal bbqs” situation or a customer complaint from a “I want to speak to the manager haircut” situation.

Continuously provoking someone who’s potentially a bigot in the vast anonymity of the interweb/entitled keyboard cowboys, shit like those sent messages only increase in probability of reoccurrence.

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hasbrochem wrote

Funny thing is, the exmormons community is by and large a bunch of fucking liberals but they get it. They understand that trans femmes at higher risk, something you all seem to not fucking care about or understand. They'll stand with that community and help protect them. You all are a bunch of fuckinh cowards.

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NoShame wrote

What if you used 'collective punishment' as a form of behavior modification. Any and every time someone from f/shoplifting harasses a member the sub is locked or a group of random members are banned for a period of time. This then places the onus on all members of the sub.

What about having a rotating member of f/shoplifting serve as a mod of the sub. When that members time to serve is due they are responsible for the sub. If they can not manage the sub then that account is banned and a new member serves as a mod.

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hasbrochem wrote

Well, glad to see this whole thing has been pointless. Carry on. Fuck the trans femme community. Bunch of fucking hypocrite wannabe rads. Fuck you all. Glad to know you don't really care when it comes down to it. Piss up a fucking rope into a high wind.

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ziq wrote

You're a cis man. You speak for no one but yourself. You do not represent the trans community.

Stop with the shaming and emotional blackmail every time someone questions your tactics. Especially when the only debate happening here is on whether the tactics you demand be implemented would even change anything.

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hasbrochem wrote

Fuck you and your bullying

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ziq wrote

How am I bullying you?

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hasbrochem wrote

Fuck off and enjoy your site you're garbage.

This isn't blackmail. This is me yelling you to go fuck yourself as I walk out the door. Fuck you, asshole.

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