Non-trans person listing out some of the suggestions from trans person(s) in the hopes people might fucking listen this time

Submitted by hasbrochem in meta

A couple thoughts before getting into this shit.

One or more trans femmes asked me to post this rather than themselves.

Let that sink while reading this and before responding. Yeah, this is gonna be angry for my part, not theirs.

While I identify as queer, this is only recent as I had previously accepted the cis-het labels given me and being a white male, there’s all kinds of fucking privilege I enjoy that aren’t currently available to those who belong to marginalized and neglected groups whether here or elsewhere. This place is supposed to be a refuge and it is for some. Not for others. That much has been made clear. Bandaids may cover a wound but they don’t solve the issue. Simply yelling back at the neglected community members that started yelling in the first place because they weren’t fucking being listened to from the beginning might make one feel better, but it does nothing to show that we actually care about them and their well being.

All right, enough preaching.

People asked for concrete suggestions (as if they had never been given before), so you have a non-trans person laying them out fucking once again in the hopes that my voice will be heard where theirs has been ignored. Again, let that sink in. This is supposed to be a radical space. This isn’t radical. This is regressive. I know, I said enough preaching…

two of these are from the last shit storm of a post

  1. less leniency with users like /u/mouse* and /u/mao* expending fewer warnings before banning those fuckers, temp bans when they start showing troubling behavior, considered as skirting the ToS as well as outright breaking it

  2. action against f/shoplifting, preferably removing the forum and migrating what’s useful, such as the guides to f/illegalism, the common goal of trying to achieve an environment where radical ideas can flourish is more important than giving home to people who inadvertently work against capitalist interests (cf. Fascism which was initially anti-capitalist in nature); f/shoplifting is not only not helpful to this but actively works against it thus hindering this goal for a radical site such as raddle

  3. stop telling members of marginalized and neglected groups here, particularly our trans and queer comrades, that they need to be nicer/gentler/more understanding when responding to bigotry

this isn't everything, but we have to start somewhere and we'll work on taking baby steps to see if something can be done.

All you have to do is fucking look at comments from our various trans community members to see further suggestions and long elaborate explanations of the goddamn fucking problem. I’m not going to name them because they don’t need further harassment from those fuckholes that are here.

If this doesn’t change, I’m gone. Contrary to what TW said, this is not the only place we have. That’s bullshit cults use to scare their members into staying and will never get anything but an angry response from me (regardless of if this was their intent or not). All that I’ve seen this last little while is that even in a rad left/post-left space, trans comrades still have to stand and fucking fight alone for the things that really matter the most. Namely to exist without being harassed, molested, harangued, bullied and out numbered even though they're supposedly surrounded by friends and comrades.

this isn't petty fucking infighting. this isn't unrepresentative of anarchists and post-left spaces either. so don't you fucking dare try and dismiss this as nothing more than a distraction. that's a mighty big position of privilege if one honestly thinks so.

Respond angrily or throw a tantrum in response to this and you’ll only show that the above paragraphs are true. I’m not here to debate. I’m a fucking non-trans person having to fucking say what the trans community has already BEEN FUCKING YELLING and no one has been fucking listening.

This rad space is not so rad, in both senses of the word, right now.

Afterthought: by driving away the trans/queer community so the f/shoplifting shit hole can thrive is doing exactly what titan and those other fuck faces want and are hoping for. Keep that in mind when you stick your neck out for them and justify them continuing to occupy a supposedly radical space sans the trans femmes, queers and others who have left and are leaving.

there's more and this doesn't encompass all of the trans community here. one or more of them asked me to write this up and post it because they feel I'm more respected in this community than they are. this is fucking bullshit.

Also, ziq, since you bowed out of whether to ban the trans maoist that violated the ToS here recently, I'm going to respectfully ask you to remove yourself from participating in the conversation in this post and ask that you just listen instead (this part is all me).

I hold no ill feelings towards anyone in this rad community, just disappointed right now, and as I've repeatedly stated, I appreciate and recognize what the various admins have done and emma is a fucking badass that will forever be someone I admire and all the hard work she does is always appreciated.

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Green_Mountain_Makhno wrote (edited )

As radicals, this should be a deeply troubling time for all of us. We, as a community, let marginalized and vulnerable people be attacked in what is supposed to be a safe space. We let troubling and abusive behavior essentially run amok. Let this be a learning experience for us. Listen to those most affected, and really engage with it, no matter how that threatens our own egos, ideals, or stereotypes.

As far as the specific things that our trans comrades have proposed:

  1. less leniency with users like /u/mouse* and /u/mao* expending fewer warnings before banning those fuckers, temp bans when they start showing troubling behavior, considered as skirting the ToS as well as outright breaking it

I'm all for it. In fact, I think we should codify what this means in real terms. IE - the first instance of ableism will get you a warning/explanation, the second will get you a temp ban, the third is an outright ban. The first instance of bigotry, misogyny, transphobia, homophobia, etc will get you a warning and a temp ban, the second will be an outright perma-ban. This is not something we should tolerate in our space. The first instance of threatening/abusive/hateful messages is a perma-ban. I think there's more to iron out and discuss as far as specific policy goes, but let's figure out what this should be an implement it.

  1. action against f/shoplifting, preferably removing the forum and migrating what’s useful, such as the guides to f/illegalism, the common goal of trying to achieve an environment where radical ideas can flourish is more important than giving home to people who inadvertently work against capitalist interests (cf. Fascism which was initially anti-capitalist in nature); f/shoplifting is not only not helpful to this but actively works against it thus hindering this goal for a radical site such as raddle

I fully support this, and the new merged forum will need to be pro-actively foregrounded as an anti-capitalist form of praxis, not a space for random crime, and it should be actively monitored so that it stays that way. I've seen quite a few posts in there that don't fall into illegalist praxis but are simply people looking for credit card numbers or tips on burglarizing lower-middle class people.

  1. stop telling members of marginalized and neglected groups here, particularly our trans and queer comrades, that they need to be nicer/gentler/more understanding when responding to bigotry

Abso-fucking-lutely. Telling a victim to calm down should be against the TOS. Honestly, that's a reactionary response to hearing someone else's experience.

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hasbrochem OP wrote

Absolutely and thank you.

Just one thing, these aren't my suggestions or proposals. This is our trans femme comrades and they have been saying these for some time now.

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TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

Watch out, Browse is downvoting anything that doesn't center their 'comfort'.

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Green_Mountain_Makhno wrote

Good thing I don't give a shit about upvotes/scores, especially when we're talking about protecting vulnerable people.

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TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

Browse likes to pretend like they're suicidal when no one agree's with them. Watch, just watch.

−1

hippiirl3 wrote

Suicide is no joke

0

TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

Browse is the joke.

−5

Green_Mountain_Makhno wrote

Ok, but right now it feels like you're crossing a line as well.

Dehumanizing and mocking mental health status shouldn't be our response to someone else being wrong or blind to their own privilege. Most of us have been blind to our own privilege at one point or another, many of us struggle with mental health issues, let us be firm in protecting our trans comrades, but also have some empathy in dealing with comrades who aren't where we are.

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TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

I use to be in a relationship with someone who threatened to kill themselves anytime they didn't get their way. I'm NOT playing this game.

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alex wrote

  1. agreed. i think temporary bans should be used more.

  2. agreed. rad users who want to talk about shoplifting could use f/illegalism. i liked u/mofongo’s approach to the dark nets forum, that is giving them time to migrate elsewhere.

  3. big agree. my opinion has always been that people of marginalized communities should handle bigotry as they see fit. i figured this was obvious opinion and is why i’ve never said anything.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Hey my life is a small compounding mess at the moment but this is what I can say

Contrary to what TW said, this is not the only place we have. That’s bullshit cults use to scare their members into staying and will never get anything but an angry response from me (regardless of if this was their intent or not).

I apologise for this and won't do it again.

I'm also sorry that I haven't been able to deal with things faster. These topics are very heavy for me and I've put a huge amount of effort in over the last while but made very little actual progress. I can't even read this whole post at once.

The points:

  1. Yes to less leniency and to more temp bans. This will be my practice from now and I would like it to be adopted by raddle generally.

  2. If it makes even one oppressed person less harassed I'm happy for them to go the same way as f/darknetmarkets. Let's burn it down.

  3. Sounds good.

Good night. I can't read the comments right now, will probably do when I wake up.

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transtifa wrote (edited )

Thank you for voicing this stuff let's hope stuff changes eh?

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disfalo wrote (edited )

by driving away the trans/queer community so the f/shoplifting shit hole can thrive is doing exactly what titan and those other fuck faces want and are hoping for. Keep that in mind when you stick your neck out for them and justify them continuing to occupy a supposedly radical space sans the trans femmes, queers and others who have left and are leaving.

What's wrong with the forum? The problem is with some of their users. If they don't respect the rules they should be banned, that's it. No reason to remove a whole forum. There is an option to hide the forum or they can report the issues to admins, they have no reason to leave: I think this is one of the most friendly places on the Internet for oppressed people considering the number of users there are. Don't get me wrong, I agree that we should keep improving.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote (edited )

Disagree with 1, 2 & 3.

  1. This is unreasonable and admins have explained why multiple times.

  2. No,

  3. Being a human can of spam is not an acceptable response to bigotry as it literally serves no purpose and helps nobody. Also most of the time it isn't even directed at real bigots and just destroys threads. If you want people to be banned faster, like you said in your first point, then act better in threads and stop making them impossible to read.

u/amongstclouds is engaging in ban evasion from f/meta. Punishment when?

−4

TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

Shut the fuck up. You called clouds a man a few weeks ago and then tried to gaslight her when she mentioned it to you.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

Lol

−3

Splinglebot wrote

I don't think we should be concerned with what is and isn't an "acceptable" response to bigotry from those affected by it

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

Im just as affected by transphobia, but nobody sees me spamming around and ruining threads

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happy wrote

Your experiences and feelings dont invalidate the experiences and feelings of others.

If you think people concerned with transphobia are ruining threads and spamming, I think thats a big layer of priveledge (bigoted, maybe) you have to be able to think that.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

I think people who spam are ruining threads. I’m just as concerned with transphobia as anybody else. Spamming and making the job of admins impossible doesn’t help anybody.

−3

happy wrote

Do you think you arent ruining this thread with your bigot apologia?

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

What bigot apologia

−5

happy wrote

Derailling this thread and making it about your agenda?

Holding the opinion that marginilized comrades here are invalid in their feelings about bigoted or transphobic users and accusing them of ruining threada for speaking their feelings?

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

I didn’t derail this thread, I specifically talked about my opinions regarding the three solutions that were brought up to make transfemme people more comfortable on raddle.

I never said that anybody ruined this thread, but there have been plenty of 100+ meta threads that were ruined by spam.

−2

happy wrote (edited )

13 of the 52 posts (fnordian told you to drop out of this conversation a while ago too) in this thread are from you defending yourself or your opinions. If you dont think that is derailing then we can agree to disagree.

What makes a post spam if your eyes?

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

I didn’t bring up any of the irrelevant points such as the lie that I called clouds a man in the previously mentioned timeframe. This was not me, and is an example of the irrelevant spam that I don’t like, but it isn’t a very egregious example.

You can simply scroll through any of the recent meta drama posts and see tons of deleted spam comments

−2

happy wrote

Even if I am totally wrong, may I suggest that you just be quiet and listen to peoples concerns instead of dogmatically arguing with them? There is a post about you in TOSbreaches so this might be a good time to be quiet and maybe apologize and figure out why people are upset?

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BioDOME wrote

You went against the mob so now they have to purge you even though you're trans. What an ideology.

−1

TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

You do realize identities aren't shields... white? Oh, I mean: RIGHT?

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BioDOME wrote

And yet we are on a site that is about to delete thousands of good helpful posts because "If it makes even one oppressed person less harassed let's burn it down".

I have to admit I'm impressed by how you pulled off this feat, bending the mods to your will. What f/ will you target next for deletion? Maybe titan will agree to spam there to expedite the process

−1

hasbrochem OP wrote

We've been warning you and all your alts for some time now. You didn't take us serious. You're an enabler and part of the problem. Fuck off.

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cje wrote

Bio: don’t engage. Titan is one of their alts and by getting you and others to continually respond they are building up their case.

It’s not hard to figure it out. I’ll dm you some of the screenshots of messages I’ve gotten from their alts.

−2

hasbrochem OP wrote

ah hahahahaha, you responding to wrong user, dip shit fuck face. nice reverse psychology too

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transtifa wrote

Raddle isn't properly protecting trans femmes but you're just like "oooo but you're ruining the threads" fuck off browse. Victims of harassment and threats can respond how they choose to without your bullshit.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

I feel protected just fine. If anything it's spam that makes me feel 'unsafe' (y'all are using very strong words unreasonably, I think) because it prevents admins from doing what they have to do. It also propels every small drama or ban issue to the number 1 thread on the site and creates a massive air of constant drama that actually makes people leave.

−6

TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote (edited )

I feel protected just fine.

See my previous post and again shut the fuck up. Spam is not worse than rape threats you ignorant little shit.

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hasbrochem OP wrote

Because I tend to react poorly to your ignorance, I'm not going to engage with you further as I don't want a repeat of what happened before (and which I'm still sorry I did and was a part of) and hope that you can consider what others outside yourself experience and understand that their lives and experiences are just as valid as your own. Best of luck to you. This is me disengaging from you here. Cheers.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Given that clouds is a central figure of the concerns in this post, I'm personally ok with her participation.

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thebigoof wrote

u/amongstclouds is engaging in ban evasion from f/meta. Punishment when?

Only if you get banned for gaslighting me last week.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

I aint gaslight shit fam

−3

TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

You called clouds a man, yes?

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

I used the word ‘man’ in the colloquial sense a couple of months ago, yes. How is that relevant? Also you can stop speaking in the third person 😂😂

−3

hasbrochem OP wrote

So because you're in a position of privilege and feel fine we're just supposed to, what, ignore everyone else? If that's not some fucked up privileged logic and reason I don't know what is.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

What privilege do I have that other transfemmes don’t have? The ability to turn off my computer?

−6

TRANSPHOBESGETTHEWALL wrote

The ability to turn off my computer?

You're saying you don't five a fuck about us as long as you feel welcome. You're basically using the same excuses as those alt-right losers.

5