Discussion: I was mad at admins for not banning a tankie

Submitted by transtifa in meta (edited )

"Hey HOW LONG SHOULD IT TAKE to ban CLEARLY bad-faith participants like u /mao?

You can't just enforce the letter of ToS it doesn't work like that. Like... ugh. There's a difference between someone who uses like commonly used ableist language when they're frustrated and then apologize for it and agree to not keep doing it and a tankie who perpetually dismisses intersectionality.

And "I didn't ban the other person for it" shouldn't be a reason to allow toxic people in your spaces

FOR FUCK'S SAKE THIS HAS HAPPENED TOO MANY GOD DAMN TIMES"

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Ok, this is a response I have empathy for. For transparency, I have made comments like this in dumpster fire threads which happened to not be removed when i logged in. "why didnt you remove this", etc.

So here's the thing. The admins are all volunteers. They are not being rewarded for their labor in dealing with shit. And frequently, they are responsible for stuff that mods should be taking care of, but arent because of the way the site is rn.

If you don't like the situation with /u/ mao, and the rhetoric you are calling them out on, then i suggest you propose a change to the ToS.

I agree with your frustration, and will help you with changing the ToS & material conditions of ToS accountability that exist on the forum. standby for a /f/meta post relating to ToS changes relating to this discussion. but please, do not reflexively fall back on calling out "the help" for not taking care of "the mess". because this consumerist paradigm is something that we all, as a radical community, need to reject and move away from. If we want change, let's make it happen democratically. Admins do a lot of heavy lifting and need to be recognized, not told to do even more. We all need to take responsibility for the community, and make it better-- not ask for permission or organization from above.

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ziq wrote (edited )

please, do not reflexively fall back on calling out "the help" for not taking care of "the mess". because this consumerist paradigm is something that we all, as a radical community, need to reject and move away from

This really resonates with me.

Sometimes it feels like we become the community's punching bags whenever we're away from the site for a few hours. I'm always waking up to a new shitstorm that brewed in the meta matrix while I was asleep and I keep turning up late for work because I'm trying to make sense of it all so I can diffuse the situation.

I didn't have time to read mao's latest posts and comments, but I saw the ToS breaches thread. I saw they'd deleted a slew of posts and comments from f/communists (which makes it even harder to follow). I went into the matrix and offered to ban mao if the room wanted that, but I also made my own suggestion: getting poetic justice by demodding mao and then filling their forum with anti-tank stuff knowing they'd be powerless to stop us and be forced to watch us defile their great leaders' names. I suggested this would be more satisfying and also prevent them from just coming back with alts again and again after we ban them because they'd be rendered powerless and see that raddle's culture doesn't meld with tankieism. Everyone we've banned lately has come right back with alts and spammed the shit out of the site.

Then everyone started attacking me and implying I'm transphobic for not banning them, which makes no sense because I offered to make the ban as soon as I entered the channel.

This witch hunt mentality against the admins keeps happening in that channel and I'm no longer willing to deal with the stress of it - We tried to change the policies so reports would only happen in the new ToS breaches forum instead of in the matrix, but people are still posting several hundred messages in the matrix demanding admins take action when we're not even there, and they get angrier and angrier as they talk about it and turn on us even more so when we come online the collective rage has become impalpable. We can't wake up to hundreds of angry disconnected demanding messages everyday. It's not reasonable to expect immediate action. A couple of hours is not that long to wait for us to respond.

So from now on, if people want to badmouth me for not being at their beck and call 24/7, do it on the site or I won't see it. I'm done with the chat rooms. I put more labor into this site than anyone and it's completely bewildering to me how again and again everyone turns on me at the drop of a hat for no good reason. No one on this site hates tankies more than me, yet somehow the rage gets directed at me for suggesting a more creative solution than a historically ineffective ban? Accusing me of not caring about trans women because... I offered to ban mao but also made other suggestions?

And then everyone quits the site over it?? I'm so disillusioned with anarchists lately.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

I'm going as fast as I can, and the others are making their best decisions also.

The ToSBreaches post is only two hours old, and has only been updated for the class reductionist transphobia after it happened like half an hour ago. Expecting us to work faster then this as a matter of course is too fast, I think. I'm not sure why you expect faster.

Simply banning individuals who can come back any time isn't always the best way forward so there was some debate on how to deal with this, also.

I'm still waking up over here. Please keep in mind that though you deal with us as relatively functional human beings in the form of text, that doesn't mean we are functional at all at any specific moment. We have lives outside of raddle. It's upsetting how demanding this post is.

If spaces that anarchists don't mod are too intense, it might be worthwhile to block them while you wait for admins to deal with the ToSBreach post.

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transtifa OP wrote

I'm going as fast as I can, and the others are making their best decisions also.

Yeah sorry, I get it, thanks. I just feel like sometimes admins don't ban obviously bad-faith participants because they haven't had clear violations of ToS.

I'm not sure why you expect faster.

I mean this post was 3-day old https://raddle.me/f/ToSBreaches/78297/police-military-brutality-apologia-imperialism-apologia . Granted, there was a lot less to that and no ableism/transphobia.

Simply banning individuals who can come back any time isn't always the best way forward

Fair enough. That's why I think we should go somewhat clos[er] registrations. But yeah, y'all have a lot of work to do.

We have lives outside of raddle.

Yeah, soz.

If spaces that anarchists don't mod are too intense, it might be worthwhile to block them while you wait for admins to deal with the ToSBreach post.

Alright.

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[deleted] wrote

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

The criticism wasn't about admins having a life outside of raddle, but that at least 2 admins were aware of u/Mao and no one dared to act.

I was aware of the user too, though I had not engaged the ToSBreaches post that transtifa put up a couple days ago.

What they did would warrant a warning. There's a long history to raddle. Previously it was a far more contested space which was more inclusive of MLMs. As the place has grown this has become less the case. But because there is precedent for how we moderate this behaviour, what looks slow to some is just moderator consistency. Moving forward the culture of raddle has and is changing and I suspect we'll deal with these things a bit differently.

Which led to a debate about "image" and we needed to get Emma's and Mofongo's opinion because they are marxist (from what I understand). Emma gave hers but Mofongo missed the discussion.

I don't have energy to look back at the actual conversation here, but I am definitely fine with a process of conferring with trusted marxists in order to make decisions.

Today we manage to make u/Mao clearly violate the ToS but for some reason there was suggestion of demodding because "it's more fun to take tankies power away". Which shouldn't be a suggestion when someone is breaching the ToS with transphobia. And then talking about it in the chatroom there was still talk about waiting for Mofongo's opinion.

Please consider that in combination with my points about raddle history and moderator consistency, as well as my points about simply banning users not always being useful, it's ok for people to propose alternate ways of handling a situation in the conversation about how to handle a situation. ziq prefaced it with saying that they would do the ban if anyone asked.

I hope this makes things clearer for people.

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[deleted] wrote

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Super low on energy and time to deal with this right now so quickly as I can:

Not acting on obvious trolls just hurt the community.

Genuine question here though: In this case, did it? Was anybody hurt by a tankie saying tankie shit in those first days?

So shouldn't we ban and then having a discussion to deal better with such situation instead of letting bigotry happen because we aren't done talking about how to deal with it in a better way?

This approach is fine, as was ziq's (i.e. saying to the affected people that if they wanted a ban they would, but in the meanwhile let's talk about approaches). Different people at different places mentally and emotionally will weigh the situation and make their best decision. There are a narrow range of decisions that I think are acceptable. Your preference and ziq's preference were both within them. My own approach was different from both of yours and also fine by me. In reality it averages out to generally dealing with concerns consistently and adequately.

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disfalo wrote

Not acting on obvious trolls just hurt the community.

Genuine question here though: In this case, did it? Was anybody hurt by a tankie saying tankie shit in those first days?

I'm now hurt: I was having a lot of fun laughing at Mao, but I guess I would've become tired after a week or two.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq wrote (edited )

because of leniency we lost Galdra

Do you have any idea how lenient we've been with Galdra?

Eat a bullet.

Have you gotten that bullet yet? It looks pretty delicious.

Actually kill yourself. I'm waiting.

you weakling. I don't use it as a shield. Kill yourself already, you're taking way too long.

I called you stupid for acting stupid. Last one for tonight, eat that bullet and save everyone the trouble.

And she quit because I took literally a few minutes to ban some asshole after crosschecking his IP addresses (on mobile while I was hanging off a water tower at work) to make sure it was a match with the account sending the abusive pms to clouds.

But the collective anger in the meta matrix makes NO allowances for any delay in answering to their demands. Never mind that I had no way to read through 300 messages while working on that water tower. And then she started saying I'm a transphobe who would call people "trannies" if I could because I told n_n (who is nb like me) to stop with the witchhunts against the admins??

Wtf wtf wtf.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq wrote

But I linked to the context. She was breaking the ToS no matter which side of the argument you take.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq wrote

It wasn't a question. The question was between demodding and banning.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

You yourself condoned it before, hon. I'm allowed to use the means at my disposal to deal with transphobes and homophobes where you won't.

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ziq wrote

Point is you're being a hypocrite for accusing me of being too lenient with other people when I let you walk all over me because I like you.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

You have a weird fucking way of showing it, my darling. Quit playing the victim. Your own position has historically been that it's permissible to be aggressive towards fash and their enablers. If actively looking after transfems on the board and responding aggressively to people being hideous towards trans women and others enabling them is hypocritical, what's your behavior?

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Splinglebot wrote

Calling someone a weakling after being told they're disabled is just "taken out of context"?

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

Moral weakness and spinelessness are a thing, champ. If I can deal with my own disabilities without using them as a weak gotcha argument, they're held to the same. Not to mention the actual context upthread is a user with a tankie post history co-opting the very real issue of corrective rape for a petty neo-identity that doesn't actually face signficant threat from it. If youe strongest argument is "we could be mistaken for queers!", you're not queer.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote (edited )

Lmao, you mean the times I told transphobes and biphobic acehets to off themselves that you were giving the benefit of the doubt to, in multiple cases while they were harassing other trans women? Pick better examples, I can be much more petty than protecting our own.

I quit because you demodded trans moderators for doing their job and then took forever to do it yourself, and because I don't want to be associated with you anymore. But given your abysmal track record for actually dealing with transmisogyny (and your utter inability to sort out your own, being nb doesn't mean you're any better than some transmasc or cis man when it comes to that specific issue), I had pretty good reason to figure that's where you were going with "I can call you much worse" because you didn't like that a transfem got mouthy with you.

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Splinglebot wrote

We have identified the bad people, thus we can justify everything bad that we throw at them - even if it also throws all disabled people under the bus.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote (edited )

More like We can match force with force and I am not obligated to give patience and understanding to tankies infiltrating queer spaces and trivializing rape and how it impacts queer women. Isn't it cute how you all cry ableism to win arguments because you don't have arguments of your own and you could be blown over like a dry leaf by the slightest show of hostility? Like please actually read Hot Allostatic Load. The ace brigade literally only pokes their heads in to do exactly what you're describing.

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Splinglebot wrote (edited )

When did they trivialise rape?

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

They reduced the issue of corrective rape, using the age old tactic of "but what about male rape!!" to divorce it from its uniquely misogynistic, lesbophobic context and to make it an ace issue despite there being practically fucking nothing on numbers or accounts of it happening to ace people and the one account anyone was able to bring up in the theead was a situation of being assumed to be gay in the first place. Which, terrible as that is, is still an outburst of misogyny rather than aphobia.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Lmao, you mean the times I told transphobes and biphobic acehets to off themselves that you were giving the benefit of the doubt to, in multiple cases while they were harassing other trans women?

  1. I linked to exactly what I meant and quoted the exact parts. It was one conversation with one person who yesterday said they are trans, gay and disabled.

  2. I don't think I was even an admin when you had that argument.

  3. I supported you in that argument and said I don't think aces that call themselves cishet should demand they be included in queer spaces.

I quit because you demodded trans moderators for doing their job

I demodded them for banning people for being "cucks". There was no justification for at least 2 of those bans. That's my main job as an admin - to make sure mods don't abuse their position. I hated doing it because I'm close with clouds but I agreed to protect the integrity of the site when I came on as admin again. If people are going to abuse their position they shouldn't be moderators.

took forever to do it yourself

I rebanned Titan as soon as I could confirm his IP address matched the IP of the abusive pms. You all waited ages to show me the pms, instead expecting I'd come in the chat and read through 300 messages to see them. I was working and couldn't do that. As soon as n_n showed me the pms on the site, I looked at the IPs and made the ban. Idk what else you expect. And there were still 2 more people she banned that I could find no justification for banning. And I tried really hard.

because you didn't like that a transfem got mouthy with you.

I asked n_n and they said they're non binary. Same as me.

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n_n wrote (edited )

I demodded them for banning people for being "cucks".

I didn't do that. And my modding rights weren't restored.

I asked n_n and they said they're non binary.

I'm not really important here because I wasn't harassed, the harassment was directed toward Clouds. I already said all that I had to said about that situation, I don't have nothing to add about it.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq wrote

You didn't have the proof then and it still doesn't account for every ban.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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ziq wrote

Clouds very understandable justification is that she was getting flooded with abusive pms. But that isn't cause for collective punishment or for putting "cucks" as the ban reason in the log - how are admins supposed to process that? It puts us in a really difficult position, especially since we are friends with clouds.

I later found out one of the users was sending the pms and rebanned him. Now we have more evidence showing another one of the users clouds banned might be involved and we are watching him like a hawk. But that info didn't exist when the bans were made and it still doesn't account for all the bans.

I also made clear the demodding was temporary until we resolved the mess.

What would you do of you were tasked with keeping mods from abusing their position and a mod did this? Just ignore it because you're friends? I can't bend that way. I wrote the whole tos and put the mod protections in there ffs.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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ziq wrote (edited )

Justified 2 weeks after the fact because of new proof:

Bandit moderator banned fuck_me_for_giving_a_shit(expires: over 907 years earlier). Reason: "make a wish"10 days ago


Not justified:

Bandit moderator banned eous (expires: over 907 years earlier). Reason: "cuck" 11 days ago


Not justified:

Bandit moderator banned marcus66502 (expires: over 1314 years later). Reason: "lol" — 11 days ago


100% Justified:

Bandit moderator banned DamnScalper (expires: over 3536 years later). Reason: "cuck" — 11 days ago


Justified after the fact:

Bandit moderator banned TitanofThieves (expires: almost 3536 years later). Reason: "fuck off cuck" — 11 days ago

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

I'd do what I did with you and call you on it, but then you got huffy and tried to act like a teenager was bullying your grown ass for a year and that justified the response that drove them off the site. I've shown you again and again how transmisogyny functions in spaces as a pressure valve and you continued to ignore it until things got as bad as they did for Clouds. Never mind that I dealt with the same shit for months from Mouse and you wanted me to go easy on him despite the age gap being a couple years and with significant class disparity.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Mouse hates me more than they hate you because I constantly told them exactly what I thought of them every time they messed with you. I wasn't even an admin then so I feel like this blame is being misplaced.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

Mouse didn't spend literally months harassing you, Ziq. But sure, he hates you more than the trand woman he stalked for a whole ass season. You still urged me to be way gentler than he deserved and if you suddenly care about temporality and that shit is different now than it was then, it blows a massive hole in this bullshit you're pulling with me considering you're weaponizing something I was working with Rose on and still had every right to resort to in that situation.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq wrote

I haven't downvoted anyone, wtf?

You wouldn't even have that proof if not for me.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq wrote (edited )

I mean I stuck my neck out to get you that proof and we've been working together on it but I'm being attacked for not doing enough to deal with the abusive pms even tho when you reveal the proof I'll be the only one held responsible for the methods we used. And it will likely be a shitstorm.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

  1. So you condone it in certain situations (and had significantly less issue then with that outcome than you do now, manipulative as always) but not in this one despite their commencement of the hostilities in the first place. That you supported it then and don't support it now that I'm not being nice to you is suss as fuck. And let's not pretend you care about the responsibilities of being an admin; it was like two weeks ago you abused your tag to push a joke way farther than it had to go bullying an underage user. Other thing about that situation is that they still were going to bat for cishets and trivializing rape, which in no way improves their position or the situation.

It's also funny that you bring it up considering it hasn't happened since, you condoned it at the time, and Rose had been helping me check myself from going straight for the throat like that even when people like this idiot deserved it. But you don't care about actual work getting done, you just care about what's suiting you in this opportunity. You're gonna do what you did when some highschooler disagreed with you and play victim.

  1. Literally everyone Clouds banned has been over transphobia, pardon me if she doesn't write out monographs on disposable troll accounts. Doing her job isn't abusing her position.

  2. It's not just because of Titan, it's because you have a history of permitting transmisogyny past the point that can be considered reasonable. I've always had to be the one to clean it up with Clouds or TW getting what I can't or I'm being too patient with myself. You've said to me yourself that "it's like you never want me to disagree with trans people" specifically because we've had this argument before about you letting shit slide or taking shit too far based on one or more parties in arguments being transfem.

  3. Nonbinary is still a wide ass umbrella that in no way makes you transmisogyny exempt. Will elaborate after clarification from n_n.

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disfalo wrote

Admins are volunteers, and they finally did the job, the title of this post is very misleading.

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bloodrose wrote

I do not believe we have a problem with admin timing. I believe we have undermodded forums for the most part. I was on the raddle meta chat when chapo trap house people joined us and things started going downhill for clouds from them and from shoplifters. And Ziq is correct that the meta was going non-stop. I think this is because there were no admins available, but I think this all could've been handled with modding of forums, with the admins coming in later for anything that needed to happen site-wide. The problem was that no one was reigning in anyone on any of the forums.

I try as a mod to log in once per day and read the comments of the forums I mod. I don't always get to them fast enough and being a mod on lobby means I am almost never timely enough. But I hope that the other mods will do the same and there will be more coverage. I also used the meta chat for reports of spam and TOS violations. But the meta chat has gotten too busy for me to keep up with so I can't use it that way any longer.

I haven't seen mao in any forums I mod doing anything untoward. However, if you have examples of where this occurred, we should check and see if our mods are on deck for this. If not, we may need to add more moderators.

We shouldn't expect 3 admins who have lives and jobs and stuff they do outside of raddle to always be on-call. We should have more people helping to moderate if that is what is needed.

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