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ziq wrote (edited )

I only broke down and mocked them after they went way over the line. The "humane gulags" was the last straw, but the repeated ableism aimed directly at me (which is a year-long pattern), and disingeneously accusing me of wanting to murder people who disagree with me out of nowhere was just as bad. Deleting their (her?) side of it was spiteful and only serves to string me up for doing nothing but call out outright reactionary comments that would have gotten them banned if they weren't identifying as a leftist.

The other people that were mad were mad because browse repeatedly calls women "man", is told not to, makes no apology, then does it again a week later.

Patience only goes so far. If after a year of me and others patiently conversing with them, they think gulags are humane, it's enough.

Edit: so you understand the joke, they said they think a vanguard party of intellectuals should "organize the state" and educate the workers to stop them from destroying the revolution out of ignorance. They said gulags are humane compared to (a strawman they invented to mock me). So I parodied it by making a fake vanguard and giving everyone in the thread an admin badge. Then we made vanguard jokes. The only mention of browseduring in the thread was the title.

And fyi, there have been tons of meta_ threads about me.

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bloodrose OP wrote (edited )

So, I found an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190514134107/https://raddle.me/f/Confession/76265/i-don-t-know-what-reactionaries-gets-the-wall-mean

I honestly think browse was arguing in good faith even if the arguments weren't great.

And perhaps I am being unfair to you. You may be too jaded to know how to engage with a young tankie - i mean, you have easily 20 years of expectations of what they will say next; whereas, they think this is some bright new, beautiful concept they've found.

Edit: well, shit, that sounded condescending. I'm not good at commenting quickly. Here's the thing: I respect you a lot, ziq. You usually have the more reasoned head. You have talked me down before. I just think this escalated quicker than I would have expected. And knowing there's a history of other stuff makes it make a bit more sense. So thanks for stating your side. I still think it was harsh. And it's true: I have seen harsher stuff said about you on this site and found it out of line and ridiculous.

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ziq wrote

I read through the archive and I don't get how this is bullying at all. I was actually restrained considering they were claiming I don't know what authority and vanguard means. They made bad arguments and those arguments were poked full of holes. That's what a debate is.

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bloodrose OP wrote

Some parts, I thought, were. Starting here:

https://raddle.me/f/Confession/76265/-/comment/121825

and the meta_ thread calling them out specifically. (And yes, I know you've been called out worse in meta_ and I think it's bullshit every time)

Seeing the full thread has made me feel like it was less severe because they did seem to be taking it well for a while. I'm very glad that I found the full thread.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Before she deleted all her comments, she replied in the meta_ thread saying "lol!!"

She then deleted 5 minutes later.

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

If I can't call out vanguardism, states and gulags on raddle, idk that I even want to say anything any more.

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bloodrose OP wrote

If I can't call out vanguardism, states and gulags on raddle, idk that I even want to say anything any more.

I'm not saying we can't do that and you don't need to be passive-aggressive with me to make a point.

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

If what you say is true about how they took the meta_ thread, then perhaps you are right and I apologize for making a mess of things.

With them gone, however, we obviously won't know for sure.

Sorry if I've upset folks. It really looked very bad, and I did try to ask in Meta chat first.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

At any time you could have disengaged. You could have called for mediation, you could have even just left it at what it was in the thread the conflict even arose in. You chose to continue to escalate with her, you chose to make not one but two threads deriding her (and let's not pretend it was a general "fuck tankies" thing because come the fuck on, Sudo is still kicking around aren't they?), you chose to make it a pity party when Rose and I said to maybe stop picking on someone we know is a kid and doesn't know better, or to take literally any other approach. I mean fuck, we even have a block button. You had every other way to resolve the situation and tbh? I really fucking don't see how ganging up on a kid is going to make her less of a truscum, especially when I've been doing the work my damn self to get her out of that line of thinking.

Completely discarding the ethics of bullying a teenager as adults aside, it's just fucking counterproductive. This isn't going to change her behavior, this isn't going to shame her into being a good tucute postie like me. This is going to push her further back into those beliefs and make it even easier for actual tankies and truscum, old enough to know what they're saying and doing, to manipulate her.

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ziq wrote

I wasn't angry and neither were they (they were saying lol and haha to all the vanguard jokes) so why would I feel the need to mediate? It was not an angry or toxic engagement on my side. It only looks that way because browse now deleted all their commemts and it's being framed as bullying when it was just a lighthearted debate. I decided to satirize their comments after they crossed the line with the gulag apologism, but I still wasn't angry.

and let's not pretend it was a general "fuck tankies" thing because come the fuck on, Sudo is still kicking around aren't they?

You really think I haven't made the exact same arguments to sudo? I'm actually way harsher with sudo.

It was absolutely a fuck tankies thing. Have you ever seen me back down when someone is promoting authoritarian shit? You're insinuating I targeted browseduring because of some reason other than their gulag apologism..? Why? What are you even accusing me of?

Completely discarding the ethics of bullying a teenager as adults

Me responding to someone who is insulting me while arguing that states/vanguards/gulags are good by pointing out all the logic lapses in their politics is not bullying. If they don't want to debate anarchists then wtf are they doing announcing gulags are humane in a room full of anarchists?

This isn't going to change her behavior,

It's not my job to make browse stop being a tankie.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

I wasn't angry and neither were they

Ziq, you know people play shit off, right? Evidently she's angry and upset enough to bail completely, and it absolutely got toxic when you started making threads specifically to fuck with her. Do you not respect me enough to be honest with me?

Absolutely a fuck tankies thing

Except it wasn't. This arose directly from an argument that clearly fucking upset both of you and apparently enough to make two whole threads about it to get others to join in. You gunned for her because it was fresh in your mind and you're pissed about it, that's what I'm insinuating. That Sudo is an adult and more capable of defending themselves is part of what I'm getting at. You still crossed a fucking lot of lines dealing with her and none of it served any constructive purpose beyond making you feel better.

Me responding to someone who is insulting me while arguing that states/vanguards/gulags are good by pointing out all the logic lapses in their politics is not bullying.

No, impatiently trampling over her when we have the thread archived and can clearly see she was at least making an effort, however wrong she was and then making multiple threads to gloat is bullying, and it wasn't just you either. Hasbro got just as vicious if not moreso in the thread but you don't see them here defending the decision.

It's not my job to make browse stop being a tankie.

Then block or mediate, because if you're going to fight over it with an actual child over the issue to the extent that you did you could have just as easily put the effort in teaching her to be better, which would avoid any further problems for you or others with her or at least give you the excuse of having tried at all. You're an admin, you're in a position of trust relative to the community that comes with responsibilities. The fact that I don't want those responsibilities yet they keep ending up on my shoulders anyway is half of why I don't want to be an admin myself.

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