Can we please *not* cyber-bully a tennager?

Submitted by bloodrose in meta

All,

I am a bit disturbed by events on raddle today. A user I have interacted with enough to know is a teenager is being cyber-bullied by our site. Now, I don't know what they said because they've deleted every comment and every post ever but I do know bullying when I see it: https://raddle.me/f/meta_/76461/announcement-u-browseduringclass1917-has-been-rejected-from

If this were an adult. If this were someone trolling the site, I wouldn't be quite as worried or care as much. A good circlejerk against a shitstain is all good fun. But this is someone we've talked to about prom plans and dating. And this person is being bullied by people I know to be adults.

Can we please cease, desist and apologize? Or tell me why I am 100% out of line and they absolutely deserve to be attacked like this? (ie, explain yourselves, please)

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

Fucking embarrassing to even be associated with this place right now, to be honest.

If you all love my writing so much that I'm trusted with moderating shit, maybe it'd help to have paid attention to any of the parts on here or in the chat where I brought up over and over how trans girls become hate sinks for communities to reinforce their sense of belonging. She's fucking stupid, yeah. She's also a kid. There was no fucking reason at all to take it as far as it went and I'm every bit as much at fault for not stepping in last night when I saw the thread.

My fucking bad for assuming adults would behave like adults.

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n_n wrote

She's fucking stupid

Naive is the word.

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[deleted] wrote

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n_n wrote

Me neither, I found out today. Hope she come back.

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surreal wrote

i'm not around much lately but maybe this is an opportunity to make our raddle family better, whatever that means.

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n_n wrote

We are a dysfunctional family but I love you all.

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n_n wrote

I'm sorry and ashamed of being part of that. I will be more mindful in the future.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

It's not a funny joke, that's the problem. A teenage girl ran her mouth, because teenagers do that, and instead of being fucking adults about it our community bullied her into leaving entirely and then gloated about "winning" an argument with an actual literal child. There's a fucking world of difference between beating up on an adult with stupid silly opinions and picking on someone who quite literally lacks the maturity to know better. Not the fucking least to add that she's trans, and a bunch of lads (and more than one sister, seriously what the fuck) jumped right down her throat without any effort to mediate or like, fucking anything that we'd happily reserve for even people like fucking Mouse when he was around who were actively and willfully malicious.

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bloodrose OP wrote

I'll point out that one of the people who was on that thread had specifically asked us to pull our punches with Mouse because of their age (19).

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somerandomletters wrote

absolute cheese weasels like a lot of other teens I've been forced to interact with throughout my life

Can we cut out the ageism please? Think how that would sound if you replaced "teens" with "gays" or "people of colour"

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ziq wrote

If someone is going to mock me; accuse me of not understanding marxism because I think vanguards and states are bad, then I'm not apologising for finally speaking my mind after biting my lip for a year. I'm sick of them talking down to me, insulting my intelligence and furiously downvoting everying I say. Them being a teenager doesn't mean they should be treated differently than anyone else peddling "libertarian" gulags and arguing in bad faith to make me out to be a violence fetishist. Treating them with kids gloves when they're engaging in gulag apologism would be ageist.

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bloodrose OP wrote

So, I can't see what they wrote which is why I started out by asking about it in meta chat. My interactions with the person have been that they consistently asked questions and sought advice. I think the mocking got into a very harsh place. In other meta_ threads, a specific user isn't usually called out and you have to kinda be in the know to know what is going on. I stated somewhere (maybe in chat) that had it been only making fun of vanguardism in a separate thread instead of calling a specific person out, I might have seen it as a harmless joke.

Further, you specifically on multiple occasions have asked us all to both:

  1. Be patient with younger folks
  2. Try to teach the marxists

In fact, you've paraded me around as an example of why it is good to be patient with the marxists as I went from red to full primmie.

I don't think someone mocking you is a good reason to be hostile. And I recognize I am often "too nice" and I checked in with others on their thoughts because I know I tend to be "too nice" and see things as meaner than they are. So, I mean, maybe take my thoughts with a grain of salt...but it felt really a lot like picking on a kid.

would be ageist

Can we please not pull out the "ists" as weapons and shields this time? I really don't want to devolve into that kind of fighting. I'd rather we talked about it.

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ziq wrote (edited )

I only broke down and mocked them after they went way over the line. The "humane gulags" was the last straw, but the repeated ableism aimed directly at me (which is a year-long pattern), and disingeneously accusing me of wanting to murder people who disagree with me out of nowhere was just as bad. Deleting their (her?) side of it was spiteful and only serves to string me up for doing nothing but call out outright reactionary comments that would have gotten them banned if they weren't identifying as a leftist.

The other people that were mad were mad because browse repeatedly calls women "man", is told not to, makes no apology, then does it again a week later.

Patience only goes so far. If after a year of me and others patiently conversing with them, they think gulags are humane, it's enough.

Edit: so you understand the joke, they said they think a vanguard party of intellectuals should "organize the state" and educate the workers to stop them from destroying the revolution out of ignorance. They said gulags are humane compared to (a strawman they invented to mock me). So I parodied it by making a fake vanguard and giving everyone in the thread an admin badge. Then we made vanguard jokes. The only mention of browseduring in the thread was the title.

And fyi, there have been tons of meta_ threads about me.

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bloodrose OP wrote (edited )

So, I found an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20190514134107/https://raddle.me/f/Confession/76265/i-don-t-know-what-reactionaries-gets-the-wall-mean

I honestly think browse was arguing in good faith even if the arguments weren't great.

And perhaps I am being unfair to you. You may be too jaded to know how to engage with a young tankie - i mean, you have easily 20 years of expectations of what they will say next; whereas, they think this is some bright new, beautiful concept they've found.

Edit: well, shit, that sounded condescending. I'm not good at commenting quickly. Here's the thing: I respect you a lot, ziq. You usually have the more reasoned head. You have talked me down before. I just think this escalated quicker than I would have expected. And knowing there's a history of other stuff makes it make a bit more sense. So thanks for stating your side. I still think it was harsh. And it's true: I have seen harsher stuff said about you on this site and found it out of line and ridiculous.

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ziq wrote

I read through the archive and I don't get how this is bullying at all. I was actually restrained considering they were claiming I don't know what authority and vanguard means. They made bad arguments and those arguments were poked full of holes. That's what a debate is.

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bloodrose OP wrote

Some parts, I thought, were. Starting here:

https://raddle.me/f/Confession/76265/-/comment/121825

and the meta_ thread calling them out specifically. (And yes, I know you've been called out worse in meta_ and I think it's bullshit every time)

Seeing the full thread has made me feel like it was less severe because they did seem to be taking it well for a while. I'm very glad that I found the full thread.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Before she deleted all her comments, she replied in the meta_ thread saying "lol!!"

She then deleted 5 minutes later.

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

If I can't call out vanguardism, states and gulags on raddle, idk that I even want to say anything any more.

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bloodrose OP wrote

If I can't call out vanguardism, states and gulags on raddle, idk that I even want to say anything any more.

I'm not saying we can't do that and you don't need to be passive-aggressive with me to make a point.

I think this is being blown way out of proportion.

If what you say is true about how they took the meta_ thread, then perhaps you are right and I apologize for making a mess of things.

With them gone, however, we obviously won't know for sure.

Sorry if I've upset folks. It really looked very bad, and I did try to ask in Meta chat first.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

At any time you could have disengaged. You could have called for mediation, you could have even just left it at what it was in the thread the conflict even arose in. You chose to continue to escalate with her, you chose to make not one but two threads deriding her (and let's not pretend it was a general "fuck tankies" thing because come the fuck on, Sudo is still kicking around aren't they?), you chose to make it a pity party when Rose and I said to maybe stop picking on someone we know is a kid and doesn't know better, or to take literally any other approach. I mean fuck, we even have a block button. You had every other way to resolve the situation and tbh? I really fucking don't see how ganging up on a kid is going to make her less of a truscum, especially when I've been doing the work my damn self to get her out of that line of thinking.

Completely discarding the ethics of bullying a teenager as adults aside, it's just fucking counterproductive. This isn't going to change her behavior, this isn't going to shame her into being a good tucute postie like me. This is going to push her further back into those beliefs and make it even easier for actual tankies and truscum, old enough to know what they're saying and doing, to manipulate her.

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ziq wrote

I wasn't angry and neither were they (they were saying lol and haha to all the vanguard jokes) so why would I feel the need to mediate? It was not an angry or toxic engagement on my side. It only looks that way because browse now deleted all their commemts and it's being framed as bullying when it was just a lighthearted debate. I decided to satirize their comments after they crossed the line with the gulag apologism, but I still wasn't angry.

and let's not pretend it was a general "fuck tankies" thing because come the fuck on, Sudo is still kicking around aren't they?

You really think I haven't made the exact same arguments to sudo? I'm actually way harsher with sudo.

It was absolutely a fuck tankies thing. Have you ever seen me back down when someone is promoting authoritarian shit? You're insinuating I targeted browseduring because of some reason other than their gulag apologism..? Why? What are you even accusing me of?

Completely discarding the ethics of bullying a teenager as adults

Me responding to someone who is insulting me while arguing that states/vanguards/gulags are good by pointing out all the logic lapses in their politics is not bullying. If they don't want to debate anarchists then wtf are they doing announcing gulags are humane in a room full of anarchists?

This isn't going to change her behavior,

It's not my job to make browse stop being a tankie.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

I wasn't angry and neither were they

Ziq, you know people play shit off, right? Evidently she's angry and upset enough to bail completely, and it absolutely got toxic when you started making threads specifically to fuck with her. Do you not respect me enough to be honest with me?

Absolutely a fuck tankies thing

Except it wasn't. This arose directly from an argument that clearly fucking upset both of you and apparently enough to make two whole threads about it to get others to join in. You gunned for her because it was fresh in your mind and you're pissed about it, that's what I'm insinuating. That Sudo is an adult and more capable of defending themselves is part of what I'm getting at. You still crossed a fucking lot of lines dealing with her and none of it served any constructive purpose beyond making you feel better.

Me responding to someone who is insulting me while arguing that states/vanguards/gulags are good by pointing out all the logic lapses in their politics is not bullying.

No, impatiently trampling over her when we have the thread archived and can clearly see she was at least making an effort, however wrong she was and then making multiple threads to gloat is bullying, and it wasn't just you either. Hasbro got just as vicious if not moreso in the thread but you don't see them here defending the decision.

It's not my job to make browse stop being a tankie.

Then block or mediate, because if you're going to fight over it with an actual child over the issue to the extent that you did you could have just as easily put the effort in teaching her to be better, which would avoid any further problems for you or others with her or at least give you the excuse of having tried at all. You're an admin, you're in a position of trust relative to the community that comes with responsibilities. The fact that I don't want those responsibilities yet they keep ending up on my shoulders anyway is half of why I don't want to be an admin myself.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote (edited )

I don't support gulags. I didn't even say anything about humane gulags. My Great-Great Grandpa died in a gulag for being part of the Left Opposition. Also, I never down vote what you post, but ok.

edit: That feel when you lie about what I said even though there's an archive link that proves you're lying two comments below. Bold move cotton.

bye

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ziq wrote

You:

‘gulags’ are a better alternative than just outright [strawman strawman strawman]

You:

Overall, I’d rather have a small state so we can humanely deal with reactionaries and liberals instead of just [strawman strawman strawman]

You:

you lie about what I said

Fuck off.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

You leave out the part where I clarify how I don’t support gulags literally a sentence before. And how is it bad to advocate humanely dealing with political opponents?

Sounds like you’re the one building a strawman, that or you have the reading comprehension of a sixth grader.

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n_n wrote

the reading comprehension of a sixth grader.

That's ableist, I know you are upset but that is not and excuse for that. Both should disengage if you feel that you can't discuss the issue without recurring to personal attacks

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bloodrose OP wrote

Don't gloat. This is not the time for that.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

It’s not gloating to reject a pretty obvious lie.

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n_n wrote

It's not a lie, what it can be is a fallacy. It's true that you didn't say nothing about humane gulags, you spoke about let people out of the vanguard which is deny their civic engagement,. Incarceration is not something that was stated, but people felt that it could be a justification for that.

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bloodrose OP wrote

Also, I did say:

Or tell me why I am 100% out of line and they absolutely deserve to be attacked like this? (ie, explain yourselves, please)

Were they really that awful?

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ziq wrote (edited )

And furthermore, turning their vanguardism on its head by jokingly demonstrating what their ideas would look like if we implemented them on raddle isn't bullying. It's not like they weren't arguing just as hard. Deleting one side of the argument makes the other side look like assholes but browse was being an even bigger asshole than any of us.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Deleting one side of the argument makes the other side look like assholes but browse was being an even bigger asshole than any of us.

Yes, it does. However, the reason it does is because it shows whether that side that remains visible decided to escalate, or de-escalate. That is what is at issue ITT imo, the context is a separate conversation, probably best had with browse one on one. I know for sure, i have made comments on this site while both in my most calm and rational states, as well as my most unstablized and pained states, in the time i have joined you all on this incredible refuge.

I always try to de-escalate conversations, i never want anyone who is using this site in good faith to think i regard them as a lesser person because of their POV. I think that should be the norm, but im not going to impose that on anyone. just suggest it, and not stop suggesting it.

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GaldraChevaliere wrote

If someone is going to mock me

Oh wow, how fucking wounding it must be that this obviously fucking sheltered kid ran her mouth to you, what a devastating blow to your ego. Come on Ziq, how the fuck are you letting a child get under your skin when it's fucking obvious that she's in that "I read Marx and now I know everything" phase? When she was being an asshole about sex work, did I bite her head off? Fucking no, I told her she was too young to understand it and dismissed her.

Them being a teenager doesn't mean they should be treated differently

So what, we should hold underdeveloped, underexperienced children to the 'rigorous' standards we hold adults to here? What the fuck is revolutionary about ganging up on a teenage girl? Ageism is writing someone off entirely because of their age, NOT beating on them like you'd beat on an adult instead of teaching them to know better because the whole fucking point of childhood is learning how to function. You're sounding like that fuckin "nearly threw hands with a 13 year old" guy.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Thanks for making the post. I haven't been around a couple days. Bummer to see this happening.

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transtifa wrote

I STARTED THAT FUCKING SHITSHOW FUCK ME YIKES

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n_n wrote

It was started and escalating since a while. Don't feel responsible.

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