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[POLICY] Should mods be able to ban bots from their forums?

Submitted by ziq in meta (edited )

Recently in f/shoplifting, users complained that languagebot was a little overzealous and asked that it be banned. A mod banned the bot, and the user who made the thread then deleted the thread.

Then an admin unbanned the bot; asking that it be discussed further before resorting to a ban.

Since the original thread got deleted by its OP, here's a thread to discuss how to proceed. Should mods be able to ban bots from their forums?

https://raddle.me/f/Shoplifting/moderation_log

Comments

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11

FormerRetailStoreManager wrote

Yes, please allow mods to ban bots. I saw the comment. The bot was way overzealous and unnecessary.

4

Fossidarity wrote (edited )

I agree that the bot was overzealous, I don't agree that it's unnecessary. For me personally it already helps that whenever I post a comment I have to think twice about using ableist slurs, this is a good thing in my opinion. /u/LanguageBot is not there to spite people, it's there to help people realize the impact their words might have on people who already have a (unnecessarily) harder life.

I made a discussion thread for the bot to discuss what words should make it comment, but since nobody replied I didn't change anything.

The question /u/ziq is asking is bigger than this, should we allow some bots to be site-wide and thus unbannable if there is consensus on whether they are good?

3

Ehrie wrote (edited )

I think it really will come down to bot maintenance. I think the "site wide" aspect of it only works if we have someone constantly looking into it and it's issues, as well as making changes. Example being, in the f/shoplifting forum "Blind Spot" is said a LOT, and the bot keeps telling us that we shouldn't say "Blind".

I can understand it being used for specific things that could be insulting to others, but at the same time, I don't want to see Raddle turn into Reddit by becoming too controlling over what we post. I'd rather the mods warn and ban as needed than constantly be 'annoyed' by a bot. The problem with the bots is that they do not see context, only words, whereas mods see both.

3

bloodrose wrote

The problem with asking moderators to do the work of the bot is that f/shoplifting is a very active forum so you're asking for a lot of free labor from a human. I understand "blind" spot is an issue. Does the bot say anything if you combine the words into one? Eg (also testing) Blindspot.

I personally like the bot because I find I use "stupid" more than I should and it has been helping me to curtail that. I also like the bot instead of a human because it allows for "oops, fixed it" rather quickly instead of waiting for someone to notice or say something.

1

ziq wrote (edited )

I think f/shoplifting is a completely different crowd than the rest of the site and there's no way a social justice bot made for the f/anarchism crowd can also work on a liberal / apolitical forum. f/shoplifting would need their own bot that would only pop up when tos-violating slurs like "retard" and "cunt" or worse are used. They're not going to stop saying "dumbass" and "blindspot" no matter how many times the bot tells them to. They're not here to work on their politics.

-3

LanguageBot wrote

I've noticed you used the ableist word "dumb" in your comment, please refrain from doing so.
Consider instead: dense, ignorant, lacks understanding, impulsive, risk-taker, uninformed, silly, foolish (to replace metaphor); nonspeaking, nonverbal, person with a speech impairment, person with a cognitive disability, Deaf person, hard of hearing person (to refer to a Deaf or disabled person)

Discussion about the words here.
2

ziq wrote

This bot needs a lot of work still.

2

Fossidarity wrote

This happens when it's banned, I really need to fix that but I don't have time for that today I'm afraid.

1

Ehrie wrote

That makes sense. I forget that we have one of the larger forums. If you tether the words, it doesn't pick up. Oddly enough, if you put any symbols around it... Like I put it in quotes, as long as they touched the word, and no problems.

I definitely get your meaning, there are definitely words I use without thinking just because of how and where I grew up... Like, words that offend people somewhere in Nebraska, may not exactly offend people in the slums of Baltimore City or Manhattan.

It would be nice if maybe the bot could message the user though. One of the annoying things I've found is (and this is purely an aesthetic thing) it breaks up the flow of comments, especially when the bot pops its head in a lot!

1

Fossidarity wrote (edited )

If you want to use the word in a context where it might be an exception you can put them in quotes: "blind".

Raddle won't become "like Reddit" by censoring notifying users that their language might be hurtful.

2

ziq wrote

Single quotes too?

'blind'

2

Fossidarity wrote (edited )

No double ones only. I could change that though.

2

ziq wrote

And what if there's a space between the word and the quote?

"Stupid people" isn't nice

1

Fossidarity wrote

That also doesn't work, also no whitespace is allowed, really only "word" is allowed. Of course anything can be changed but there should be a good reason for that.

2

TheLegendaryBirdMonster wrote

Could you easily modify it so that "blind spot" doesn't trigger it?

If that works would /f/shoplifting still have a problem with the bot?

2

Fossidarity wrote

Sure that's no problem.

4

LiftyBoi wrote

As a newbie, I really appreciate languagebot and don't think it should be banned. All it does is make people consider how their words might hurt others, and it's educational too imo. I never considered that "stupid" might be ableist language, but now that I've thought about it, I agree with languagebot and I'm gonna try and refrain from using that word. It would be different if it banned people for those words, but it seems like much more of an educational tool than anything. Keep languagebot!

3

Cheeks wrote

The kind of Bots in question should only be able to be banned based on consensus from the entire forum, period. Modifications should be welcomed and expected when it comes to triggers. Blindspot is entirely acceptable IMHO but we are a global community and need to respect the possible interpretation as some something plausibly different.

My vot le is NO to mods being able to ban bots outside of it being through community consensus.

3

ziq wrote (edited )

I think they should be able to manage their forum the way they want. The bot keeps responding to "blindspot" so they should be able to ban it just as bots get banned for making multiple identical posts in other forums. I don't think admins should be micromanaging them unless they're violating the tos.

2

theheart wrote

Yes. Forums should be able to remove what they find appropriate, as long as they aren't violating ToS. Languagebot, despite being a noble idea, is obnoxious and works badly.

2

Faolinbean wrote

I don't think mods should be able to ban bots we've put here

Spam bots, go for it

0

Ehrie wrote

Are you referring to my thread from this morning, or another? I deleted mine because a mod from other forums decided to be immature and insulting. Rather than promote their behavior, I just deleted it to get their comments and toxicity away from everyone. =/

4

Freux wrote (edited )

There is no such things as only two genders. By using "he/she" you are denying others, it might not have been on purpose but many are tired to have to explain this again and again.

For the "stupid" slur, it is ableist, the bot explains it, if you still don't exactly understand, you can simply ask (like I did in the past).

Edit: Was going to reply on the thread you started but it seems to have gotten deleted.

1

Ehrie wrote (edited )

It's as you said, I didn't intend for it to be like that. I was speaking from a purely generic standpoint. I say He or She, because I feel like -most- people do choose one. I'm not saying they are physically a male or female.. They can be emotionally, mentally, physically, whatever have you, but in most cases one of the pronouns is -typically- chosen. Hell, as a sapiosexual, I'm attracted to all genders if they meet the right criteria!

It was not meant to be insulting at all, and I'm sorry to any that I may have insulted. I will not, however apologize to those unwilling to hear my words and their actual meaning. Thank you for explaining it though, and doing so civilly!

As for the "Stupid" thing.. I cannot fully agree with that, based off the definition of the word "Stupid" alone. A "stupid person" as a noun is one thing. That makes sense. But not as an adjective, which is how I used it to describe myself, of all people.

stu·pid /ˈst(y)o͞opəd/

adjective

1. having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

Having or SHOWING a lack of... etc

And I was indicating a time that I was showing a lack of intelligence or common sense.

The sad truth behind all of this, is I was making fun of the bot and how both serious and funny it was that it preferred that I called myself a "Dipshit" then calling myself "Stupid". It was literally one of the options it gave me as a replacement.. Then it all blew up into this fiasco..

Edit: Yeah, I deleted it because I was wasting too much time and energy on people not willing to listen or believe what I was trying to explain. It was toxic and unnecessary. I'm not adverse to private messages if you want to discuss it more for any reason. (This goes for anyone willing to have a real discussion beyond throwing insults). Also, keep in mind, I am not on Raddle for politcs.. I'm on it for f/shoplifting and little else. =/

5

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

Sapiosexuality isn't a sexuality. It's a FETISH that is ableist and classicist. You're not queer for fetishizing people.

-1

Ehrie wrote

That I'm attracted to people purely for their mind and way of thinking. I wouldn't call that a fetish if it's the only thing I am attracted to. Other than that I am incredibly asexual. I don't call myself queer either. I simply am not attracted to gender or the sexuality behind genders. I wouldn't call it a fetish just as I wouldn't call myself queer.

I'm attracted to what Im attracted to, and not attracted to what Im not attracted to. It just so happens that I'm only sexually and romatically attracted to intelligence and charisma vs gender.

4

amongstclouds wrote

Sapiosexuality is a fetish. Not a mode of sexuality and not a kink. It's a fetish that points out only one aspect of a person based on classicist and ableist thinking.

-1

Ehrie wrote

So then what would you call me? Other than a cuck or an insult. A male who has no interest in the gender of their partner and only romantically invested (And sometimes physically) based on what goes on on their head, rather than what pronoun they hold? I am trying to understand you, despite all this toxic back and forth. What is a person who cares nothing about gender called. What category would I fall under?

5

amongstclouds wrote

omg you like people for how they think so radical no one is like you omg

-1

Ehrie wrote

See, this is what I was just talking about. Youd rather insult than teach. Im done with you. Call me what you want. Think what you want. If someone who actually cares about other peoples views wants to help me understand then great. Otherwise, Amongstclouds, unless you really want to help, your conversations with me are going to be onesided moving forward.

5

bloodrose wrote

Youd rather insult than teach.

No one owes you an education. Don't expect free labor.

2

Ehrie wrote

No one owes me insults either. It's fine if one doesn't want to teach, but to simply name call for the sake of name calling, that is also not owed.

4

bloodrose wrote

It seems like you're attacking a user and then getting pissed at being insulted. But with the deleted posts, it's hard to tell.

1

Ehrie wrote

The point was I was attacked first. In the Shoplifting forum, by someone I had never spoken to or commented with previously. Your right, it's hard to tell without the proof. Only those in f/shoplifting who saw it before hand would be able to stand witness, but Im not going to drag them into unless they want to come forward.

2

bea wrote

So then what would you call me? [...] A male who has no interest in the gender of their partner and only romantically invested (And sometimes physically) based on what goes on on their head, rather than what pronoun they hold?

Panromantic asexual? Maybe panromantic demisexual if by "and sometimes physically" you mean sexual attraction to the people you are already romantically attracted to. ( you don't need to state your preferences on your partner's intelligence )

Of course I can't really know what your sexual and romantic orientation is but from the description you gave it sounds like that.

0

Ehrie wrote

I'm a pretty asexual individual overall, but every once in a while I'll meet someone and we will just mentally click. I will become sexually attracted to them simply based off the way we hold a conversation, discussion, or debate. People like this are few and far between, but that's about the only time I get drawn in sexually to another person.

Typically though, I enjoy the romantic side of the relationship right up until it gets sexual, then I simply become bored and ready to move on... Unfortunately for my partners =/

I'm... What did my friend call me.. Polyromantic Asexual in that regard? I can't say I've done my research into the many new classifications!

3

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

You bring up you're sapiosexual like it's supposed to be some get out of jail free card because you admit to fetishizing people.

0

Ehrie wrote

Get out of jail free card? Im not so concerned what a bunch of people think about me. But I am trying my best to be civil, help explain my position, and help get understood by explaining the best that I can. You'll see I asked you a genuine and authentic question to you. You can insult me all you want, but wouldn't it be better to help someone understand than prosecute them for not knowing something?

3

amongstclouds wrote

You went to my profile. You saw my pronouns. You decided to be a cuck. This is common with all folks like you.

1

Freux wrote (edited )

It might not have been your intention but it doesn't matter because it did hurt some people and/or annoyed others. Using "they" includes all genders and it's even shorter than he/she!

"Stupid" is ableist because it means you attack someone that struggle. As you said, you meant it in a "lack of intelligence or common sense" but why would you insult someone that struggle to understand a situation because their brain work differently? Intelligence isn't measurable. Dipshit is totally fine because it's not ableist.

You said that you were wasting time and energy on people not willing to listen but I'm sure that's how they felt about you. It doesn't matter that you aren't into politics, it is part of our daily life. Raddle anti-bigotry stance is site wide.

1

Ehrie wrote

Keep in mind, that the only person I used the term "stupid" in relation to was myself. Not once have I called someone else that word or description.

Aside from that, I'm unsure if you ever read the comments aimed at me. But in this specific circumstance, if you had, you'd see that I tried explaining myself many times ONLY to receive insult in return. Those who have been civil, I have asked questions and even accepted their explanation.

Because of people like you and the few others who have explained it, I understand and willing to make the change in pronouns, but those who insulted from the very beginning do not deserve respect. We talk about Raddle being anti-bigotry and that's great, but to prosecute, judge without comprehension, and insult others is not a far step away from bigotry on its own.

When those who do not want to be judged and prosecuted start judging and prosecuting...

Well, I'm going to assume you get my point at least. Even if you don't agree with it. No one wants to be insulted, especially those who have been making an attempt to understand.

3

bloodrose wrote

But in this specific circumstance, if you had, you'd see that I tried explaining myself many times ONLY to receive insult in return.

The problem is you've been deleting comments and posts. We can't actually see the whole story. We're community-based and so we work things out as a group. When you take away the data, though, we can't do that.

1

Ehrie wrote (edited )

I agree that this was a bad move. My hope was to stop the toxicity and keep everyone out of it. Unfortunately, it just trailed into other topics (Where it also doesn't belong. =/)

It's actually worked against me, as it would prove that I've refrained from returning insults, and it all started from simply being insulted because of my opinion on a BOT, when I was trying to be entertaining about it.

0

Freux wrote (edited )

Does it matter that you targeted yourself? Wouldn't you see a problem if someone says "I did such a "insert a slur here" thing"?

Again, your explanation/intention doesn't matter. You fucked up, you got called out, you didn't try to understand nor research why what you said was wrong. Stop trying to defend yourself, stop explaining, just own up to it.

You say they don't deserve respect but right from the beginning you didn't give them any.

I'm assuming by "they/them" you are talking of multiple people that attacked you. Amongstclouds stated more than once her pronouns.

Edit: My example didn't come across the way I wanted and made it seems I was comparing "stupid" with a racist slur instead of making a point that targetting yourself doesn't excuse the use of slur.

-1

Ehrie wrote

Amongstclouds stated the pronoun thing long after first calling names. No one else accept them has been giving me grief. Everyone else has been explaining, and I've been returning that explanation with respect.

I disagree with you that explanation and intention do not matter. I believe they -do- matter. I believe someone who kills accidentally vs maliciously matters. Someone who kills out of revenge or cold blood matters. Someone who steals from a company or a private individual matters. A child burns themselves on a stove not knowing what it was, having never had someone tell them its hot, you don't insult them.

I -DID- try to do understand why what I said was wrong, but that will not stop me from understanding by asking questions or explaining why I thought something specifically. You want me to own up, that's cool. I'll own up to it.. You want me to stop explaining myself, to stop trying to understand and share why I am uncertain, I will not.

I -GAVE- the respect from the beginning, AND continue to do so, despite the person doing nothing but throwing insults at EVERY comment I have made.

You want me to do my research, then I ask you to do yours before you take sides in something that shouldn't even have sides. I gave my reason for using "He/She". Reasons for my understanding, and apologized for offending already. I simply stated that I will not apologize to a person who came at my with insults from the absolute first comment they made, which had absolutely nothing to do with them as a person or a gender in the first place.

This all started with me being insulted for making fun of a BOT and Myself.

I'm done here though. You can protect Amongstclouds all you want, but look through their history of comments and you'll see a toxic person. The gender doesn't even matter.

3

amongstclouds wrote

This all started because you don't like being told you're problematic.

0

Ehrie wrote

This all started because you called me a name for absolutely no reason.

2

amongstclouds wrote

I called you a cuck because you think being told something you said might be problematic and you are pretending to be OPPRESSED AND MARGINALIZED.

0

Ehrie wrote

You called me a Cuck in a post where I was poking fun at a bot.

2

amongstclouds wrote

You were complaining that the bot put you on blast, because of what you said.

0

Ehrie wrote

I found it funny that it wanted me to call myself a dipshit over stupid. And told us not to use "Blind" in Blind Spot.

That's it.

-1

LanguageBot wrote

I've noticed you used the ableist word "stupid" in your comment, please refrain from doing so.
Consider instead: uninformed, reckless, impulsive, ignorant, risk-taking, risky and dangerous, dipshit

Discussion about the words here.
2

amongstclouds wrote

You went to my profile to downvote me. I have it posted there. You said 'he/she' with malice, can't change my mind -- tools like YOU do this all the time.

0

Ehrie wrote

There was no malice because I didn't know the difference. This is what you don't understand. I went to your profile because you insulted my post for no reason, and I wanted to see what other things you posted. I downvoted your posts where you chose to insult people and no others.

I don't need to change your mind. I know my own.

3

amongstclouds wrote

And you decided to refer to me as a 'he/she'. It's obvious you don't know the difference.

0

Ehrie wrote

... Exactly.. I didn't know the difference. I said it purely as a general statement. As in "He or She" because I did not know. I didn't see THAT part of your profile, had I seen it, I would have just said 'She'. But you refuse to believe this, so arguing it wont mean anything. Once someone explained to me WHY it was offensive, I even changed it.

3

amongstclouds wrote

Or you can say 'they' because we get enough of you cuckwads thinking it's cute to call trans people 'he/she'.

-1

Ehrie wrote

Except on my post, my mind was the furthest away from transgendered people. That's what you are not getting. My post had nothing to do with that topic, and was far away from any forum that discusses it. I simply made a mistake my NOT knowing. I do not have many trans people in my life, and I don't really frequent discussions. I DIDNT know I was being insulting, and when someone EXPLAINED why it was. I stopped as well as changed it in my post. Why is this so hard to accept.

2

amongstclouds wrote

You referred to me as a he/she and you can keep crying about me calling you a cuck, but you are a cuck. You actually deleted it. You didn't change it.

-1

Ehrie wrote

Everyone wants people to change and view others in a better light, but then the very people trying to change things, rather than take on a more graceful and civil approach, choose to use the same hatred in retaliation.

Nothing is getting solved, and I'm tired of responding to those who refuse to listen.

You got your wish. I'm done. Enjoy whatever win you got out of this.

2

amongstclouds wrote

HAHAHAHA CIVILITY HAHAHAHA

You are literally the BIGGEST cuck I've seen on here in a while.

-1

LanguageBot wrote

I've noticed you used the ableist word "stupid" in your comment, please refrain from doing so.
Consider instead: uninformed, reckless, impulsive, ignorant, risk-taking, risky and dangerous, dipshit

Discussion about the words here.
3

amongstclouds wrote

You deleted it because you're crying about not being able to say stupid and that just seems so fucking petty. LOL.

Go away, transphobe.

4

LanguageBot wrote

I've noticed you used the ableist word "stupid" in your comment, please refrain from doing so.
Consider instead: uninformed, reckless, impulsive, ignorant, risk-taking, risky and dangerous, dipshit

Discussion about the words here.
1

[deleted] wrote

3

amongstclouds wrote

Go figure the radlibs are fucking transphobic losers.

-1

JailMagpie wrote

Most of these comments should have been regulated to pm imho.

Personally I'm not on here for "politics", I just like living vicariously through people who are braver than me. The fact that theres a sjw bot freaking baffles me.

I feel like we're turning into a world full of people just waiting to be offended without considering context or rules of language and conversation. You see a word and you're automatically upset because someone on the internet dared offend you but when it comes down to it we're all just numbers and data and at the end of the day why does it matter so much if a stranger who has never interacted with you and most likely will never interact with you again doesnt use your specific pronouns to address you. You correct them and if they dont respect you just block them and move on.