13

[Proposal] Temporarily ban ziq so the community has time to heal (Proposal Failed)

Submitted by leftous in meta (edited )

Update: - I said I would retract this proposal if ziq left voluntarily. But I realize this is inappropriate and I should let the proposal be. Feel free to change your votes if ziq leaving voluntarily is sufficient for you.


It's clear that /u/ziq has no intention of letting raddle heal considering he does not want to take responsibility for the complete implications of his destructive behavior. He is victimizing himself and lying again to the community he has harassed, hurt, and manipulated, instead of accepting responsibility for it. I have also found evidence that this was a manipulative pattern on reddit he also exhibited - making alts, harassing/trolling users, controlling meta votes, then revealing his alts - and this was pointed out and documented by many users there. I will refrain from posting this info because it could lead to doxxing him.

I propose temporarily banning ziq till Raddle can recover and purging all of his alts that we can find (including those he has yet to reveal). I am not suggesting a permanent ban since I acknowledge ziq's work in founding raddle and the work he put into building it up as is. I believe can be a valuable contributor at some point if he comes to terms with the implications of his behavior and stops.

However, right now his denials, gaslighting, and preying on people's sympathies is toxic. Moreover, I don't believe he has stopped making alts since I have seen some very suspicious comments/accounts popping up.

Edit - removed the part about not having violated the ToS. Using multiple accounts to subvert voting is a violation of the ToS.

Edit#2- I will retract this proposal if ziq agrees to taking a temporary leave of absence voluntarily.

Comments

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12

____deleted____ wrote

I vote yes. Worst case, he shuts down the site; if that would be his response, he clearly is a dictator in any case and as such the site should be shut down. Best case, he loses his main source of influence and has alts that will continue to be called out (as more are being exposed from what I can tell).

6

leftous wrote

Well said, this needs to happen either way and what ever happens, happens.

10

Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

EDIT: given the amount of abstaining being done here, I feel more confident to say - I oppose. I'm quite wary of some of the malicious and unthoughtful things happening on this site at the moment. And though ziq has deleted their data (which I wish they hadn't), I don't think that's reason to stop the vote.

I think that for now at least I will abstain as well, I would rather the community decided based on what's available to them. From the start of this, a ban of some sort was always a real possibility. If this ban will help raddle move forward and heal, that would be good. Hopefully that is the outcome, if it happens.

As things stand, by my best judgement ziq has (at least generally) been trying to do the right thing with this apology, and it's not as clear to me that their denials are false as they are to leftous, especially based on my own personal experience of all the people involved. I hope those of you who are following this will have read enough that you have at least come across my main responses to this saga, and that in in general you do what you can to have the fullest picture of what has happened. I have struggled somewhat to do that myself, so I hope that my own view is alright.

I'm grateful to leftous for doing work to resolve this, even as I don't actually believe the things he is positing here that make up the basis of his proposal.

8

[deleted] wrote

5

leftous wrote

Don't leave untitled. :( I really appreciate you being here. I think you're misreading this. I don't think you're an alterego, nor do I think anyone who has posted in this thread is (including the troll).

This isn't a witchhunt or wild paranoia at all. I just saw this as the only way we can salvage the situation and have fair re-votes. I explained more in the other posts that /f/meta has been heavily manipulated and influenced by ziq's alts, and we just need a bit of time to sort it out and distance ourselves from the drama.

For the length of the ban, I just wanted to leave it up to the community. When ziq comes back saying he's ready and reflected upon the extent of the damage here, we revote to reinstate him. It isn't to exocommunicate him or witchhunt.

2

[deleted] wrote

8

rosalique wrote

Twink is being downvoted for being an obvious troll.

ziq may have started Raddle, but Raddle is not ziq. Raddle is evolving beyond them. This seems like a setback, but I think ultimately it'll be the catalyst for something new and exciting.

And tbf, paranoia can be handy when you're a leftist.

6

Dumai wrote

i seriously doubt ziq would post KKK apologia and quote social darwinists even ironically, that guy's clearly some dude from reddit trying to milk the drama

8

DaisyDisaster wrote (edited )

Support. Since this is a pattern of behavior, he certainly has some reflection to do.

Edit: Since ziq decided to leave voluntarily, I change my vote to oppose since it would be unnecesary to temp ban. I hope he comes back when all the smoke has cleared.

6

bea wrote

I'm in support, sorry /u/ziq.

I feel like raddle needs some time now to let this all blow over, and that would be best achieved if you took some time of your own. Maybe even to do some introspection about all this.

6

squat wrote

I don't have an opinion on the proposal itself, but several people have expressed concern that /u/ziq could take the site down? I guess it's hosted on their server or something? Perhaps this should be a separate thread, but, regardless of the outcome of this vote, are there not things we could do to mitigate this now? Surely we could just get another server? I would be willing to help out with that financially if that was an issue, I'm sure other people would too. We just need a copy of Postmill, a dump of the database and control of the DNS records, and somebody with some sysadmin skills, right? I guess /u/ziq controls the DNS. How many people are there who have the necessary access to the server to make a dump of the database... is it just /u/ziq?

I can't make a judgement about whether they can be trusted or not, but I think their stepping down as an admin isn't worth much if they still have exclusive control of the underlying server. I find it astonishing that people are genuinely worried that this could be the end of this site. We can take steps now to ensure that, whatever /u/ziq does, the site and the community will survive. Maybe we lose the domain (fine, we just get another one)... worst case scenario we lose everything, but even then we can just set up a Postmill instance somewhere else and try to migrate people there. If there was somebody other than /u/ziq that the community trusted to be a custodian of regular backups of the database then the worst thing that could realistically happen is we have to change the domain. Everything else could be quickly restored.

I think if /u/ziq wants people to regain their trust, they need to hand over the credentials for the DNS registrar and for the server on which the site is hosted. But maybe the community needs to work out first whom should get that access.

7

Tequila_Wolf wrote

emma has server access also. ziq's been willing to hand over everything, but the appropriate people have not been willing to take it on.

It would require a trusted user, not based in the US, who is willing to pay the bills and have those bills in their name. As things stand we don't have that, and ziq's been willing to hold it in the meanwhile.

There's not even a small part of me that thinks ziq would delete raddle, nor would they fight a ban. They anticipated a potential ban in the process of apologising.

4

squat wrote

There's not even a small part of me that thinks ziq would delete raddle, nor would they fight a ban. They anticipated a potential ban in the process of apologising.

It's still a problem though when several people in this thread have voted no or abstained, explicitly because they fear that ziq could retaliate. But what you say is reassuring and I'll take your word for it.

For what it's worth, I'm not based in the US (out of curiosity though, why does that matter?) and I'd be willing to put stuff in my name and to pay the bills (I already host a couple of things like this anyway). Obviously there's no way in hell that I'm a trusted user, given that this is my third post ever and I only signed up a few hours ago. But let's see if I stick around and become invested in this place, perhaps with time I could gain people's trust.

Actually, you know what, I could even just rent out a server somewhere, pay up front for a really long length of time, and then just hand the login details for the hosting company over to an admin here without ever even logging in or setting up an OS on the server myself. Whoever here does set up the OS could set it up with full disk encryption and their own login details and I would never have the keys or passwords in the first place.

Obviously I would still be the contact for the hosting company and could log in to the management panel (or if not, at least convince them on the phone to reset the password for me or something). But even assuming I got in, I could wipe and/or reinstall everything, but I couldn't tamper with the site, and also whomever I hand over the account to would get an email notification if I logged into it, so there's a degree of accountability nonetheless. Basically I just sign up, pay some money, give the details away here, and "forget" about it, people here don't necessarily even need to trust me very much.

Maybe this discussion is for another place and time, but I'll leave this here for the record. If people want to have a conversation about this and they decide that they're interested, PM me and we can work out the details and then I'll get on it.

6

Random_Revolutionary wrote

Imo you're overblowing the gravity of ziq's actions. He fucked up, but didnt really put the site in danger nor put the users in danger (appart from the whole opinion manipulation thing). He was always trying to improve raddle, got caught up in his mess, but came clean quite a while later. I too trust ziq with the server.

5

Dumai wrote

tentative support - i don't want ziq to leave the site permanently but i do think we could all use a little distance from this situation and as long as ziq is still here arguing with ex-users that's not gonna happen

5

rosalique wrote

I vote yes. I think the time apart will help both the community and ziq.

4

kore wrote (edited )

my vote would be for this site to be shut down EDIT: that was a bit abrupt. I think a leftist forum like raddle has a place on the internet, but when the founder has manipulated all the users i feel very uneasy about it all

7

leftous wrote

We have a great community and a lot of potential here :(

2

kore wrote (edited )

so much of the community was fabricated by ziq. I know we all took sides to some extent in the defasher ordeal and that whole process was helpful for the so-called "community" in learning how to deal with that sort of shit but now that I know it's fake i feel like a fool for being that invested in it. My trust has been betrayed.

7

leftous wrote

It's true, it was bullshit. We're all people here now though. We have a bunch of different groups, projects, and initiatives that can actually amount to something and can't be faked.

4

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

Well, Raddle has gone to shit. And no, it's not just ziq.

8

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

When you see conversations about ziq popping up in the form of insults, in threads that have NOTHING to do with ziq, while also attacking anti-civ and egoist positions, without even an INKLING of knowledge about that which you critique is borderline R E A C T I O N A R Y.

2

leftous wrote

I agree. Post-leftists get a bad rap in pretty much every leftist community. I agree with most of what posties have to say, and would consider myself one if not for the fact it is so poorly understood.

I think it mostly comes down to poor dialogue and understanding where leftists and posties think each is being reactionary. Probably because the postie position is so straightforward and simple, it's hard to really take in.

4

23i wrote

abstain, because this site is likely going to be dead regardless, tbh.

4

Cosmicsloth42 wrote

I would like to come out as opposed but I think both sides make compelling arguments. Do we need to ban him or can we simply ask for a voluntary temporary leave of absence?

Either way I don't know so I will abstain.

3

leftous wrote (edited )

I originally thought that's what ziq was going to do.

I would be glad to retract my proposal if he agrees to leave temporarily and let us sort this out without the toxic drama and distractions.

4

jadedctrl wrote (edited )

I don't want to vote in support— I don't hold anything against /u/ziq, but I also wasn't one of the people he hurt— but we need to do some extreme stuff to keep Raddle afloat and vibrant. This and utilizing Konsent seem like good ways of doing that.
Sorry, /u/ziq… Support, for a little while.
EDIT: … I take back what I said. I'm really conflicted about this, honestly. Instead of voting, I'll abstain.

3

Random_Revolutionary wrote

I feel like a ban is a punishment and wont really solve anything. He kinda already punished himself by loosing the community's trust.

I believe he should go to /f/mediation to solve his personal problems instead of /f/lobby thought.

Also didnt we say that discussions about bans should be done in /f/mediation? Even if we're talking about our former admin, I do not believe this thread belongs in /f/meta

2

leftous wrote (edited )

I feel like a ban is a punishment and wont really solve anything. He kinda already punished himself by loosing the community's trust.

It's not to punish him. It's so he and the community can get some distance to heal without the drama.

I believe he should go to /f/mediation to solve his personal problems instead of /f/lobby thought.

Also didnt we say that discussions about bans should be done in /f/mediation? Even if we're talking about our former admin, I do not believe this thread belongs in /f/meta

This is part of the problem. ziq vote manipulated that vote to implement mediation. Ziq in fact voted three times in support of it - ziq and two of his deleted alts.

It's best we just follow the community's will here and have revotes on everything since we can't trust anything that has gone on in /f/meta.

2

Random_Revolutionary wrote

Ye but we can ask him to not bring drama instead of banning him. Has someone asked him to go cool down for a bit, before suggesting a ban? Granted politely asking him didn't really work when he was defasher.

3

leftous wrote

Ziq thought that everything was cool after the revelation and it was just a small group of users with an issue. This makes it more clear that the entire community isnt at all cool with how people and votes were manipulated, and we all need a bit of time to sort this out. The temp ban is basically asking him to go cool down, distance us from the drama, and get the community reorganized by re-voting.

3

Copenhagen_Bram wrote

Support. How long will you ban him?

2

leftous wrote

I think whenever ziq is ready to come back, he can inform anyone, and we can have a vote to unban. If people don't feel Raddle is back on its feet, we can continue to re-vote every so often.

3

mofongo wrote

Ziq deleted their account, this is no longer needed.

2

Tequila_Wolf wrote

To be clear, a ban would prevent ziq or new alts by ziq from participating for the time of the ban. Whether they have deleted their account or not there is meaning to the ban.

3

sudo wrote

Nah. I think their apology and stepping-down as admin is sufficient.

2

selver wrote

Temporarily ban the one account we know for sure is ziq.

FTFY

Oppose.

Devil you know.

7

leftous wrote (edited )

By this logic, why ban anyone?

Right now though the point is just making it clear to ziq that the half-assed apologies are unacceptable. He needs to acknowledge the full scope of the destruction here and his history of it if he really cares about this community. And it's not only so Raddle can get through this, but also so ziq himself can figure his shit out and come to grips with the fact this isn't okay at all.

3

selver wrote

Yep, why ban anyone is the real question to come out of this. I have not once seen something like this go down where the banned individual isn't back under a new name soon after. Banning just encourages the creation of new alts (or the use of existing ones, which 100% already exist), and makes it more difficult for people to know who to ignore.

As I wrote in another thread, this is where a way for people to selectively block/mute individuals would be extremely useful.

1

leftous wrote

I agree, blocking/ignoring individuals is the best way to go in shutting down alts. Maybe we should make w/Disengagement a raddle-wide policy till something technical is implemented.

-12

Twink_Nechayev wrote

I think YOU should be banned for picking on the Founder of raddle for being brave enough to admit his mistakes

7

selver wrote

Fuck off, half hour old accounts are the last people we need to hear from right now.

What's with lurkers & randoms coming out of the woodwork whenever there's drama.

2

____deleted____ wrote

What's with lurkers & randoms coming out of the woodwork whenever there's drama.

t. anarchist catalonia

-12

Twink_Nechayev wrote

Please watch you're language if my parents see curse words im my computer I will get in trouble. I'm just trying to stand up for the man that built this place with his own hands, unlike you who are being mean to him on his own site.

2

365degrees wrote

I'm not going to make a vote because this is quite dangerous. Ziq could pull the plug on Raddle if they aren't able to use it, or otherwise manipulate it from the server side.

0

zombie_berkman wrote

sure. id be onboard with perma too since it was a complete asshole move but im too lazy to make the thread

-5

Twink_Nechayev wrote

Oppose. How can you ban a guy from his own site? He was just trying to make raddle more exciting and get some conversation going. Everybody needs to leave ziq alone.

4

leftous wrote (edited )

We want to let him be alone and think this through and reflect on his behavior, that's why this is a temp ban.