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DissidentRage wrote (edited )

Reply to comment by surreal in Raddle codebase by surreal

every MVC framework out there is shit regardless of language and the ones that are not MVC are just an entagled mess of code. imo MVC leads to a mess too. "The web/database is just an IO device" why should the logic of the program depend on the UI stuff and the ORM?

This tells me you've never actually done serious work with any MVC frameworks - at least none that were any good. The point is to separate those things out into different concerns so that if you needed to change one component you wouldn't have to rewrite the entire application.

The idea behind "the web/database is just an IO device" is specifically to prevent you from needing to address the way the UI and ORM are set up if you need to change those things. You could for instance move from MySQL to MariaDB or PostgreSQL by pointing it to a different database server and using a different package to handle the database transactions without having to change your actual application structure.

It only becomes a problematic mess when you're looking at code from people with no system design experience who couldn't tell the difference between a repository and a factory or write SQL statements into controller methods. By separating things out at different levels you make it so you only have to deal with the levels of complexity of operations equal to the levels of complexity of the changes you need to make to your application.

All languages have something to offer. Python offers readabilty and that makes coding less painful that's why it's the first choice for someone without a CS background and the only choice for someone that doesn't want to learn programming but has to cause it helps them in their field.

Kinda making my point and emma's. If you don't want to learn to do proper development you have no business architecting something like Postmill because you will end up doing a disservice to your user base in the end.

Python2 is almost dead Python3 is a better and faster(>=3.6) language.

Support is not adoption rate. And yes Python 3 is much better and faster than 2 but you still have to contend with the PEP 394 standard which suggests that the basic python package simply create a symbolic link to python2.

Why do you hate virtual envs, they are like very simple app "containers" and you can have different versions of the same package.

It's work that's only required because of the fundamentally broken development environment that it needs to run in, which I covered on the previous reply. Perhaps there are ways now of making it more convenient, but it's still working around an antipattern that was borne out of necessity since the Linux community has been carrying Python 2's dead husk.

My frustration at this comes from actually trying to migrate into the Python community and finding its development environment being fragile to the point of masochism.

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surreal OP wrote

Venvs were created so you can have different versions of packages and it's dependencies and it has nothing to do with the py2-3 difference.

I have worked a lot with Django and if you think it's shit then it's a matter of opinion cause reality proves it works very well for all kind of systems.

I agree with "the web/database is just an IO device", i meant that MVC frameworks are not built with that in mind. Separation of concerns is not just being able to drop MySQL for MariaDB (which is an exact clone..) and Postgres which is almost the same. What about NoSQL or you know just plain CSV files because why the fuck no? And what about the UI? how do you turn a webapp into a desktop app with GUI? Node.js? nah.. Most MVC frameworks are not modular in these regards. Btw Symfony uses comments as an API to the ORM which is something you will never see in a Python framework and it's disturbing.

What if Postmill never gets another commit, would you expect raddle to die as well? The userbase is raddle and feature requests go in vein. The architecture is already there to clone, this is not something only the elite devs can do, this should be for the community, wasn't it this way all along? It's better to have the most contributors you can get so the community is safer from those elite software architects.

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