You know what would be cool? If we wouldn't create cults of personality on this site. (Off my chest)

Submitted by sunrat in meta (edited )

Sometimes i wish that usernames on Raddle would be just randomized hashes on every comment so we wouldn't know who writes what. Cause now there's like 2 people carrying the conversation because they're on the site a lot, commenting on everything and kinda gathering a following. And that's great that they are contributing a lot of good content to a site that is still pretty small. They're cool and nothing against them but i just hope when the site grows it doesn't turn into their echo chamber.

Now i saw a new person coming from Reddit and he is a real piece of work. The Ben Shapiro of Zen - /u/ewk on /f/zen. Some people think he's super clever because he talks a lot. Right now 12 out of 15 threads here are started by him.

He's a guy that's been sitting 24/7 talking complete nonsense and gaslighting people about how his lineage of Zen is real and the other are fake for 9(?) years on /r/zen. Eventually people created a fork subreddit to discuss actual Zen things. https://reddit.com/u/Ewk - he's got a pretty big following just because he's posting a lot of edgy nonsense, while having very little actual knowledge of the topic.

He's got some good points there about sexual harassment by teachers but I think we realize that this is a function of organized religion (because cults of personality maybe?). We can make the same point that nobody should be Catholic because priests abuse kids. It's a little more complex than that, isn't it? And I'm saying this as an atheist.

In real life someone would just told him to shut up and that would be it. And he won't be doing anything bannable. So my question is - how do you organize an Internet community so that it doesn't turn into a cult of personality? I don't have the time to dispute things all day because I have to work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I'm not seeing things right. Also, I don't think following someone is inherently unanarchistic(hierarchical?), but it might lead to unhealthy things.

Have a good day.

Edit:

I apologize if I offended the community, and I'm sorry I won't reply to all the comments.

I'm not good with expressing myself often and English is not my first language. I agree I went to far with the "cult of personality" thing.

Let's say I was projecting the future in my mind, because I saw this too often in many anarchist places - /r/anarchism (I assume most of us came to Raddle from there), the old Ratchat when it had hundreds of active users, a Peter Gelderloos lecture I attended recently, or a meeting of my local Antifa chapter which is dominated by a big white guy, even though half of the people there are women.

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Fool wrote

I note that there was already a zen forum called Zenarchy on here, but the users were/are not specifically Zen, so it's okay.

I personally have not been certain if ewk was attempting some sort of test. Discussing orthodoxy about a way of understanding which is specifically opposed to orthodoxy.

They ask questions about the koans as though they missed the point that the koan was making, I'm not sure if that was the point or if they really don't understand.

They also have a weird bias to the word meditation - which presumes a very specific understanding of Zen, which is weird from the standpoint of someone just learning about Zen... But then again my viewpoint is that of a fool.

If you notice ewk gets downvoters a lot. People here do not like their attempts at being an "expert". I'm enjoying Zen so far, I started looking into Zen to prove them wrong... And now I don't care to, because of Zen.

They have a point about entryism, but they seem to place doctrine purity above actually understanding the point of the texts.

The main problem seems to be with Japanese Zen... So I ask why not use the Chinese name Chan instead?

To actually addressing the main point.

Raddle is relatively small, and anti-ideology so I don't feel anyone really builds a cult of personality. Those that have, have been "banned" for abusing it. There are some dominant people but they're not the most loved, just those with the most time.

Many people (myself included) read every forum, so having person specific forums is okay. Those forums are like blogs, open for people to engage. I think of them as more like tags to define the topic.

Actually... I'm not sure how to engage with Zen, because once you understand, there's nothing to talk about, except for nothing, am I supposed to talk about nothing?

This forum is /f/meta, but not /f/meta_ or /f/facebook_. This question is probably more of a /f/lobby or /f/askraddle.

🐿️

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[deleted] wrote

7

Fool wrote

We shall be the Raddled Dray!

A group of squirrels is called a scurry or a dray. A dray is specifically used to refer to a nest of squirrels and is often used to describe a mother squirrel and her young. Squirrels are typically solitary creatures making scurries somewhat rare

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TheFacelessFace wrote

Raddle is relatively small, and anti-ideology so I don't feel anyone really builds a cult of personality.

I for one want to join fool's squirrel insurrection.

🐿️

You don't realize how hypocritical and ironic this statement is, do you?

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ewk wrote

I spend 99% of my time on social media just debunking with facts... that's it.

Zen is a tradition that is very interested in public discourse and written records. There is almost 1,000 years of Zen history written by people within the Zen community in China. Including books of instruction written by Zen Masters.

The idea that there is "nothing to talk about" once you are enlightened is misleading. One way it is misleading is that it ignores both Zen tradition and Zen's historical records and encourages people to continue to ignore them.

As Reddit starts to look more like Facebook every day, it is getting easier for people to ignore facts and spam misinformation. I push back in the area I know most about: Zen. I guess I'm pulling a Kantian Categorical Imperative: if we all pushed back, then we'd have an internet that was more than just popular opinion.

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Fool wrote

Facts and logic.

Lacts and fogic.

Meow?

if you make intellectual interpretations, (you'll go on through) past, present, and future lives for sixty aeons.

  • the blue cliff record
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TheFacelessFace wrote (edited )

if you make intellectual interpretations, (you'll go on through) past, present, and future lives for sixty aeons.

  • the blue cliff record

Is that an intellectual interpretation by Zen Master YuanWu who wrote that book?

Oops, you got caught lying again.

If you think you're capable of discussing Zen, why not come to f/zen and participate appropriately, instead of supporting fascism, bigotry, and censorship in an off-topic troll post in f/meta?

Is it because you're a lying troll with no integrity? (I think it is)

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Fool wrote (edited )

if you think you're capable of discussing Zen, why not come to f/zen and participate appropriately,

Define "appropriately", I've been amongst the most active in the sub. If you're too fragile to accept alternative interpretation, then don't post on a public platform.

instead of supporting fascism, bigotry, and censorship in an off-topic troll post in f/meta?

How am I supporting any of these things?
You make assumptions, with no backing. Just mouthing off, trying to insult.

Is that an intellectual interpretation by Zen Master YuanWu who wrote that book?
Oops, you got caught lying again

How is it a lie, it is in Case 7, you were the saying people won't engage with the texts? When I quote texts, you say I'm lying.

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TheFacelessFace wrote (edited )

Define "appropriately", I've been amongst the most active in the sub. If you're too fragile to accept alternative interpretation, then don't post on a public platform.

"Appropriately" in this context means: "not lying" and "engaging sincerely".

You're not doing that ... you're trolling a forum about shit you don't understand.

"Participating appropriately" would mean studying the history of Zen and reading the historical records so that you're not a clueless troll lying about things for attention on the internet.

Here are some FREE resources to get you started: https://realzenstudy.fandom.com/wiki/Zen_Resources

Maybe you're not interested in reading or critical thinking or honesty, but that's not my problem.

How am I supporting any of these things?

Because you made a facetious troll post about a "cult of personality" simply because you got told that you don't understand something that you haven't studied.

You're trying to attack the messengers because you don't like the message.

You are pretending that "honesty" and "facts" about reality are akin to "ideology".

You're a liar dude, I don't know what else to tell you.

"Stop lying", maybe?

How is it a lie, it is in Case 7, you were the saying people won't engage with the texts? When I quote texts, you say I'm lying.

You're not "engaging with the texts".

You googled some shit about stuff that you don't read according to your own words:

I have never read a Zen text, beyond Wikipedia. Wikipedia tells me Zen is based on thoughts that "do not stand on words"... So go figure.

Insta-fail.

That's before we even get to the fact that you're using the quote you took out of context in order to make an "intellectual interpretation", so you're not even being superficially honest.

If I seriously need to explain to you why that is all a huge intellectual and honesty fail, then I think you're being even more dishonest.

You know don't study, so why not just study Zen (or else just stfu about it)?

I mean, I doubt that you really enjoy being ignorant and dishonest, so why not try "education" and "honesty" out for a bit?

Here's your claimed "engagement":

Facts and logic.

Lacts and fogic.

Meow?

if you make intellectual interpretations, (you'll go on through) past, present, and future lives for sixty aeons.

  • the blue cliff record

This is just childish flailing from a pwned ego.

"Intellectual interpretations" about what?

(Hui Ch'ao) asked, "What is Buddha?"
Fa Yen answered, "You are Hui Ch'ao."
Hsueh Tou says, "In the river country the spring wind isn't blowing; deep within the flowers partridges call."

If you can make the grade here, you will be able to walk alone through the red skies; if you make intellectual interpretations, (you'll go on through) past, present, and future lives for sixty aeons.

Can you "make the grade" here?

Obviously not.

Hsueh Tou is extremely compassionate in the third and Seventh Case fourth lines; all at once he explains completely for people.

Ch'an Master Ch'ao's great awakening is likened to fish becoming dragons where the waves are high at the three-tiered Dragon Gate, while fools still go on dragging through evening pond water.

(The Dragon Gate is a gorge through which the Yellow River passes at the border of Shensi and Shansi; according to tradition,) King Yu cut it (through the mountains) forming a three-level (passage for the river).

Nowadays, on the third day of the third month, when the peach blossoms bloom, and heaven and earth are ready, if there is a fish that can get through the Dragon Gate, horns sprout on his head, he raises his bristling tail, catches hold of a cloud, and flies away.

Those who cannot leap through fail and fall back.; Fools who gnaw on the words are like scooping out the evening pond water looking for fish; how little they realize that the fish have already turned into dragons!

Oh look! You got called out over a thousand of years before you were even a sour sperm in your mother's belly.

Now that's what I call a "pwn"!

Sucks to suck! Enjoy sucking up that pond scum ... unless of course, you decide to demonstrate some integrity and either study Zen, or else stfu about it.

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Fool wrote

Meh, you're boring, you enjoy your "superiority".

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TheFacelessFace wrote

Meh, you're boring, you enjoy your "superiority".

See how you didn't engage with the text?

(It's because you aren't actually interested in Zen)

Zen has nothing to with superiority.

Enjoy your boredom.

🙏

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ewk wrote

Aren't you the guy that just told me that historical facts don't matter and you're going to go ahead and believe whatever you like?

Seems like a little late for you to be getting a pet.

−3

Fool wrote

No, I said you argue poorly.

Your method of argument undermines the validity of what you're trying to argue.

If the right man preaches the wrong way," said Joshi, "the way will follow the man and become right. If the wrong man preaches the right way, the way will follow the man and become wrong."

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ewk wrote

Because you say so?

Pass.

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Fool wrote

👻

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ewk wrote

I'm not interested in your religion.

I'm interested in the historical records of the Zen lineage.

It would be cool if you didn't harass me for not sharing your BS religious beliefs.

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TheFacelessFace wrote (edited )

I'm pretty sure you don't understand the point of any koans.

I doubt you've studied many Zen texts.

I know for a fact that you're lying and trolling.

Actually... I'm not sure how to engage with Zen, because once you understand, there's nothing to talk about, except for nothing, am I supposed to talk about nothing?

Talk about how you're lying about studying Zen, and how you don't actually know what you're talking about.

That would be a good start to (finally) having an honest conversation.

The Master addressed the assembly, saying, "To know the existence of the person who transcends the Buddha, you must first be capable of a bit of conversation."

https://zenmarrow.com/single?id=95&index=dong

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Fool wrote

You know do you?

I bet you even know the existence of the person who transcends the Buddha. 👻

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TheFacelessFace wrote

I do, but my knowledge is useless to you.

In fact, it's antagonistic to your dishonesty.

Sucks to suck; sorry to pwn you 🙏

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Bezotcovschina wrote

I just hid /f/zen

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ewk wrote

Yeah... because we all know that head-in-the-sand totally works.

Worked with Trump. Worked with Covid.

Hiding from facts is unquestionably the way to go.

/s just, you know, in case you don't know how information works.

−3

Bezotcovschina wrote

Yeah... because equating hiding /f/zen with covid policies totally works.

/s just, you know, in case you don't know how argumentation works.

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ewk wrote

If you think I'm wrong make your argument.

You clearly came down on the side of censoring things you didn't want to hear.

Covid is a phenomena we are experiencing because of people following that same policy.

Sorry for wrecking your world.

−3

Bezotcovschina wrote

Not wanting to see things that are out of my interest is not censoring.

Destroyer of worlds, my ass.

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ewk wrote

That's not what you're doing though come on.

I mean why lie about this and an anonymous account in a tiny little forum?

What specifically is outside your interest in the world of facts?

−3

Bezotcovschina wrote

it's not funny anymore, so, you win, my world is ruined, get a medal and stop bothering me

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TheFacelessFace wrote

Why not just study Zen instead of crying on the internet?

Aren't you curious to know what Zen is?

−5

TheFacelessFace wrote

Not wanting to see things that are out of my interest is not censoring.

That's almost literally what censorship is.

The only thing missing is "enforcement of my desire", which is what OP is appealing to the Raddle community to do.

You're a bigot.

The sooner you can come to terms with that, the better.

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monday wrote

I don't mess with the Dark Brotherhood, let them rot in the Black Iron Prison

ZAZAS ZAZAS NASATANATA ZAZAS

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__0 wrote

The cult of personality issue is a huge issue with a lot of so called anarchist leaning spaces I've been involved with, where a few people always become dominant/dominating voices in conversations ...

Situations where people feel anxious about being heard or where some people are flexing their power within a group to steer decisions that don't affect them as much as their actions affect others, things sometimes can turn decidedly non anarchistic, and the people who are usually more interested in more open ended conversations can often feel disillusioned and withdraw from the group

I do see an issue with a sense of ownership over forums on this site, and people using some forums as their personal soap boxes, as much as I think it's important for people to have moments where they can be very loud and visible. There is also something very important about taking time to learn the dynamics of a space before participating... Not to say that someone always has to act in accordance with an etiquette... But more that they can see the general atmosphere of a forum.

I think In the way this side is divided into different forums, wikis, pages, bios, could be seen as almost pseudogeographic. It's interesting how the way people interact with the intersections of these spaces really do a lot to create the actual experience of using this site, In a sense there is a hierarchy to the way these pages are organized and even the nature of comments and posts being ranked numerically could be described as hierarchical, although these numbers don't really mean that much, I do find myself at times interacting with these metrics in a kind of way that I was trying to escape in other social spaces.

Maybe it's only human to desire validation, but In a sense the anonymity of the validation is kind of alienating, and I find myself responding to it in ways I don't consider entirely healthy.

I try to participate in raddle in a way that others on this site as well as myself would find to be positive. I think the limits of the site to cause some issues but they also make the site what it is.

Also these things seem to come in waves.

Lots more I want to talk about on this thread, but I'm pretty busy rn!

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ewk wrote

The pseudo-geography is one of anti-intellectualism. I have lots of examples, but the common thread is people who refuse to read some books, refuse to talk with people who have read those books, and generally refuse to acknowledge that facts are the context for debates about politics, race, history, and science.

−2

TheFacelessFace wrote (edited )

What I find interestingly ironic is that in being demonized for simply setting up "f/zen" as a forum for studying Zen, actual students of Zen are like the Palestinians, while the pre-emptive attempt to silence us is like the Israelis claiming "nah, we have historic claim to this land."

"You" do?

How? Why? Because your religion said so?

Who even are "you" that this land is "yours"??

What I also find interesting is just how quickly triggered bigots are ready to jettison their professed ideals and identities in order to come out as what they really are: fascists.

Thus we have this post on raddle.me--a place which promotes the "Decolonization of Israel"--putting forth an OP which espouses a "Zionist" attitude towards Zen and actively calling for an apartheid against people that simply want to discuss books.

Calling us ideologues and oppressors is like Israel justifying state-sponsored bigotry by calling the Palestinians "terrorists."

"Zen Buddhists" (Japanese or otherwise) want to claim that they have a historical claim to Zen, but even their own supporters can't legitimize the claim.

Bigots refuse to acknowledge that book (linked above).

It would be like if some other Stanford academic wrote an ostensibly pro-Zionist biography of Theodor Herzl and was forced to admit that the foundation of Zionism was illegitimate, but then went on to claim that Zionism was an "important philosophy" anyway, one which "innovated" upon Jewish religion.

OP here is basically saying, "Palestinian history is not really ‘Palestinian’ because Theodor Herzl proved that 'Palestine' was always 'Israel' so people who come here to create f/palestine for the purpose of discussing Palestinian history are terrorists and ideologues."

If these intellectual spaces constitute a "pseudogeographic" region, then bigots like OP are saying "you don't have a right to discuss Zen, because Zen belongs to the religious usurpers because their religion says so."

Equating you to Ben Shapiro is like equating Edward Said to Alan Dershowitz.

−5

__0 wrote

By pseudo-geographic I mean, that online spaces represent a space, that each space is connected and has cross influence, although raddle has a great deal of homogeneity throughout the forums since a lot of people participate in a borderless fashion die to browsing all/new there are people who focus on particular forums and influence the forums culture and general atmosphere, I mean it also in an almost deleuzian way as well, where there are flows of influence and rhizomatic structure. But you can see it as anti-intelectual if you want honestly I don't care it seems like a bad faith argument to me. But sure I'm sure that people not looking at your forum is basically apartheid lmao, sounds rough.

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TheFacelessFace wrote

That was a disingenuous take.

And clearly I understood what you meant by "pseudo-geographic" since I used it in the same way that you just said that you intended it.

If people simply "didn't look at our forum" that would be great.

Right now, that's not what's happening.

It's like Israel talking about "tolerating the Palestinian 'occupation'" while discussing how to poison their wells.

Saying that "honest discussion in a Zen forum" is akin to a "cult of personality" is like saying that the Palestinian desire for independence and rights to live on their land is akin to a "terrorist insurrection".

The foundations of apartheid and bigotry are right there in the language.

−3

__0 wrote

...I can't believe how bad your takes are. Honestly I think you should consider posting your garbage somewhere else. Comparing the plight of people not liking your spam quality posts to that of apartheid, and Palestine is absolutely tasteless.

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TheFacelessFace wrote (edited )

Thanks for the advice but I think you're a pseudointellectual pig just looking to troll people for kicks, so I'm going to decline your invitation to cede my pseudogeographic territory to your bigoted view of intellectual purity.

Sorry to pwn you 🙏

−3

__0 wrote

Yeah but do you have any examples of anything you're claiming? Or should I just take your word for it? I'm a bigot, probably some sort of racist microaggression that I'm not enjoying your posts on this forum? I'm probably a just another lying-pseud-bigot-pig-troll-purist who is getting very pwn'd right now...

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TheFacelessFace wrote

I'm probably a just another lying-pseud-bigot-pig-troll-purist who is getting very pwn'd right now...

Good job.

−3

AnarchoDoom wrote

Usually not a fan of up/downvoting, but just to tell ya I logged in just to upvote this.

Also funny how the Ziq is not commenting to this thread, yet... ;-)

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lettuceLeafer wrote

I actually have thought about this a bit before. Now I was going to say that cult of personalities on raddle is a stretch tho someone I don't want to talk about did succeed in that. Plus Id rather discuss what ur talking about currently.

Personally I like raddle a lot bc u can develop a kinda personal connection with people and become somewhat friends. If it was just comments without a connection to a person I wouldn't use it at all. Plus I think if a whole host of problems from such a system. Tho the important part is ur thought which is important and not as an actual proposal.

I have thought about it and was kinda annoyed bc I wondered if my ideas where held to a lower standard and criticized less bc we were friendly or whatever. But tbh people just wouldn't engage with my ideas or would just dismiss me so posting under an alt was pretty uninteresting.

Plus I like raddle as a forum to discuss how anarchy impacts people's lives and if I wanted to keep myself anonymous I wouldn't really be able to do that. Plus it's really nice to talk to supportive people about ideas and plans. So I have had similar thoughts but it just wasn't really worth it.

Now I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm one of the people I'm talking about. Now being vague is fine I do it all the time so I can more talk about an issue rather than call out a specific person. But I'll relate stuff to myself bc I have more to say. I do think this could be an interesting discussion but tbh u kinda deserve the derision bc calling it a cult of personality is really infantilizing and belittling.

Tbh I can't really think of a good example of anything close to this happening. Like people mostly just tell me that they like me but I'm a deeply flawed person who makes many mistakes. So I think the right approach would be being specific about what kinda behavior u dislike and not call it a personality cult. Because the way u went about it comes off as thinking people just will go along with whoever posts a lot on raddle and can't think for themself. Tho I think there is a nugget of something useful to talk about but mostly if I concede to u the premise it sounds extremely condescending.

0

sunrat OP wrote

Tho I think there is a nugget of something useful to talk about but mostly if I concede to u the premise it sounds extremely condescending.

I agree I went too far calling what's happening right now a cult of personality, but aren't we the same people that created cults of personality in the places I mentioned in my edit? And isn't it common in anarchist spaces?

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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

No I've never started a cult of personality or been in one lol.

Plus most anarchist spaces are oppressive, mysogynist, fat phobic, abliest hell holes it's no surprise that the people in those spaces make incredibly poor decisions.

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ewk wrote

One of the my go-to strategies for dealing with religious bigotry (like the OP) on social media is just to ask for definitions of words. "Cult", "religion", "troll", and of course "Buddhism" and "meditation" all shut down the vast majority of bigoted rants.

People just don't know what words mean; but they know that definitions lead to fact-based debate rather than name calling.

I'm seeing a fair amount of abuse of the terms "gaslighting" and "ad hominem" as well... people use these terms but ask for a definition, let alone evidence matching that definition, and suddenly the conversation is over.

You are 100% right. Being specific really really works. Not to change people 's minds, but absolutely to identify when people mean what they say... and when they don't.

−2

TheFacelessFace wrote

You got downvoted by fascist bigots for simply discussing how you feel.

Maybe the community here isn't what you thought it was.

−3

ewk wrote (edited )

The larger point here is about how social media and fringe religious movements have one thing in common:

NO FACTS.

The OP can't prove any of the stuff said about me. None of it. So why say it?

The OP likes to hang out at the intersection of social media and fringe religious movements.

All I do is quote Zen Masters. Real life Zen Masters. Why do people like the OP get so upset about that?

There are real life consequences for people who have no evidence, who spend their whole lives hiding from the real world on the corner of Social Media and Fringe Religion...

...and no, I'm not just talking about all the people who died from Covid.

Misinformation is the biggest threat to having an internet that's worth a @#$#.

−2

TheFacelessFace wrote

This probably doesn't belong in this forum either:

Post about the site here. Please only contribute directly to the meta topic at hand, and in a constructive manner. Tangential conversation is just making work for admins.

...

Disputes between users not involving clear ToS violations should be solved in f/mediation.

−2

TheFacelessFace wrote

PSA:       Know Your Troll

The above content has been member-flagged by the present author as:   🚩 [ "Concern Trolling" ] 🚩

This message is being provided as a free resource to educate the community on identifying and responding to trolls in their forums.

~ Stay safe, keep informed ... and please don't feed the trolls ~

−4

TheFacelessFace wrote

Wow how is this OP not bigotry?

I apologize if I offended the community, and I'm sorry I won't reply to all the comments.

You're not sorry, you're a lying pig.

You're a tyrant and bigot who is triggered by the mere existence of an opposing viewpoint.

You're preemptively trying to censor conversation because it challenges your religion.

This is not gonna look good in the future. I'm 100% archiving this post so that you can't delete later and feign ignorance (a typical troll tactic).

−5