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3

Dumai wrote

universal basic income will happen, that's the scariest part

1

ziq wrote

Yeah but probably not until they stop needing human workers to labor for them.

2

Dumai wrote

ubi will absolutely not abolish wage labour though

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ziq wrote

The point is capitalists know we can't survive on what they pay us as it is, and most capitalists think - if we had UBI why would we keep working for them?

Only a minority of capitalists think having the gov subsidize workers so they can get away with paying us starvation wages is a good idea

3

Dumai wrote (edited )

the point of ubi isn't just to minimise wages but to increase profit by furthering the privatisation of state services and better enabling the poor to consume

the neoliberal capitalist class is well aware ubi will not cut into their labour pool but it will aid consumption without meaningfully increasing the wealth of the poor at all, which is why they're in love with the idea

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ziq wrote (edited )

If that were the case, we'd already have it. But every time a UBI trial goes forward, they sabotage it to render it ineffective and then declare it a failure and cancel it. To me this reads like neoliberals warring with each other, with the anti-UBI crowd currently having the numbers to win. The pro-UBI crowd are a new breed of 'progressive' neolibs coming from the tech sector. They'll win eventually, but not until the old guard die out (and at that point automation will have replaced most human labor).

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Dumai wrote (edited )

don't know if that's true. finland's experiment wasn't actually scrapped, it just ran to its original end date and wasn't extended. the finnish government is still waiting for the full results from the trial, which are meant to measure basic income's effect on employment status. and regional experiments in ubi are doing reasonably well in canada, catalonia, and scotland. this is definitely the beginning stages but i'd expect ubi to be well popularised within the next few decades.

and let's be real here: it isn't automation alone that's increasing unemployment, and i really really don't expect it to kill wage labour anytime soon. i actually expect it will simply fluidise the labour market to the point that most workers will not have a single, stable source of employment but multiple low-paying jobs with less fixed hours, and that process is far more likely to increase average work hours than decrease them. that's what the gig economy is doing! ubi simply provides them with an easy way to continue consuming when their total lack of job security fails them, and when you consider that the number of services they'll need to purchase from private companies will increase by the same measure...

... yeah. ubi is a very present possibility and it is fucking terrifying.

3

libre_dev wrote

We should be happy to give our jobs to robots, if it weren't for them being controlled by the monied classes

3

Dumai wrote

lol no

"The Hypothesis was that machines could replace slaves. The evidence shows that, used for this purpose, machines enslave men. Neither a dictatorial proletariat, nor a leisured mass can escape the dominion of constantly expanding industrial tools." - Ivan Illich

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libre_dev wrote

That sounds a bit like the expedient technology view some greens have. I've found it an interesting idea, but haven't looked very far into it. As a programmer I'm incredibly lazy, so of course anything that has to be done more than once should be automated. Unfortunately this is much harder to do in the physical world.