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ziq OP wrote

wheat is poison. humans were never meant to eat it

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lettuceLeafer wrote

I don't nto believe you tho I'm curious about the evidence for this claim.

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ziq OP wrote

Lectins are mild toxins which are found in wheat. They’re basically like a plants built-in pesticide—one of the ways a plant protects itself. Lectins aren’t broken down in your gastro-intestinal system but bind to receptors in your intestinal walls. This allows the lectins and also undigested food particles to leech into your blood stream (i.e. “leaky gut”). Yes. Poop gets into your blood.

When undigested particles are entering your blood stream, this is bad, as you might guess. Really bad. Why? Because your immune system mounts up an attack. These attacks can eventually be, at least partially, responsible for the development of autoimmune disease.

On top of this, lectins are also implicated in causing leptin resistance which leads to weight gain, sleep disturbances, and a host of other problems. Now, you’re not probably going to be able to completely eliminate lectins from your diet. They are present in a lot (and I mean a lot) of foods, but you can decrease your consumption of them by cutting the biggest offenders (i.e. those with massive quantities of lectin), wheat being one of them.

Another reason for why is wheat bad for you revolves around gluten. Gluten has become quite a buzz word lately. Gluten is made up of the two proteins: gliadin and glutenin. It’s the glue that holds your bread together and gives it it’s elastic properties. For the 1% of individuals in the United States which have celiac disease, this is the protein that causes a major problem.Celiac disease is just one outcome of being intolerant of gluten, however.

It used to be that doctors would only admit gluten was causing a problem if you had a positive biopsy showing damaged intestinal villi. The problem with this is a biopsy is only examining a very small part of the intestines. There very likely may be intestinal damage which is not in the area which was not biopsied.

Celiac disease is on the rise—a 400% increase in just 50 years. We don’t really know how many people suffer from non-celiac gluten sensitivity, but it’s likely a high number. Some doctors and researchers say they suspect everyone suffers from at least a small degree of gluten sensitivity.

Why is gluten a problem for most (or all people)? Because gliadin (one of the gluten proteins) universally (in everyone) causes zonulin to be released. Now you’re thinking, “What in the world is zonulin?” Zonulin is what regulates how permeable our intestinal wall is. The more zonulin present, the more permeable your intestinal wall becomes.

In other words, both lectins and gluten can cause problems with leaky gut. It’s imperative that individuals suffering from celiac disease avoid gluten. But it’s also important that those who suffer from non-celiac gluten sensitivity also avoid gluten (yeah, that means probably most everyone).

Last, but not least, are phytates. Phytates cause minerals to be bio-unavailable. That means, when phytates are around, it makes it much more difficult for your body to utilize the vitamins and minerals that are present.

They do this in two ways, they binds up minerals and prevent them from being properly absorbed. Another interesting tidbit, is that phytates are also associated with increased tooth decay. So much so that anthropologists use the level of tooth decay to determine whether a society was agricultural or a hunter/gatherer society.

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moonlune wrote (edited )

Now you’re thinking, “What in the world is zonulin?”

THE TEXT IS READING MY MIND 😱

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[deleted] wrote

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kin wrote

Actually was a physical reaction I'm getting for at least 2 years now. It started, or I noticed, in the middle of the pandemics, beer, bread or pasta usually don't sit right in my stomach. If I get those cheap beer made of corn and rice my symptoms are not near as bad if was wheat.

I need to get this check too, I am was pushing my doctors visit to the next month...

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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

most of the time bad nutrition advice in annoying. But this science is so horrible its actually hillarious. Which i don't blame people for because the argument makes sense on the surface and does have some decent points supporting a bad conclusion.

First off lectins. They are a antioxidant and one of the strongest phytochemicals in fighting cancer. But here is the think. Lectins are destroyed by many processing methods, boiling, fermenting, roasting and removing outer layer which contains most or all lectins. So something like white bread would have almost no lectins. The lectins in pasta almost certainly become null and voice like beans which after 10 minutes of boiling removes all lectins or makes all innactive. So the only sources of lectin you need to worry about is like eating raw wheat or types of whole wheat with minimal cooking.

But here is the even funnier part. Not having lectins is bad. For one lectins have been shown when put on a petri dish to destroy or revert colon cancer cells into regular cells. While leaving healthy cells. In addition to bein a great antioxidant. So then why does it cause leaky gut? Well why is it making a hole? Lectins don't bother healthy cells but they do kill cancer cells. Well that makes sense, in stool samples a test can be done to tell if you have intestinal or colon cancer. If lectins are clumped in the stool. Because in people without the early stages of cancer the lectins do not clump to attack cells. But if you have cancer the lectins clump.

So this complaint about the dangers of lectins is that they are literally removing cancer from your body which causes a whole hence leaky gut. Getting temporarly leak gut so I don't get intestinal or colon cancer is a great trade off in my opinion. But here is the thing you don't have to choose. We have to ask a question why is it so easy to create a whole in the intestines in the first place?

Because the standard american diet is horrible. Processed foods and meat consumption feed negative gut bacteria and muscles out healthy gut bacteria which is highly associated with reducing zonulin levels and strengthening the walls of intestines. So if people just ate a diet of whole plant foods to begin with they would have a way lower risk of getting leaky gut from lectins killing cancer. Not to mention if they eat a diet with a moderate amount of lectins they would be less likely to get the cancer in the first place.

See lectins are a antioxidant. They counter oxidative stress. Oxidative stress attacks cells.So increases the aging of cells. And everytime a new cell is made it has a chance of mutating into cancer. So preventing cell death reduces chances of cancer in the first place. So this issue with lectins is that people allready sick eat them and then get the negative effects because their body is in terrible shape and killing cancer in a sick body without negative health effects is difficult.

But guess what wheat is actually not great in this regard because of its low bioavailability of lectins. The most bioavilable ways to get lectins are raw foods. So while many fruits and vegatables are lower the lectins don't get destroyed like most sources of wheat. Hence more available lectins. So if you are really concerned about lectins the real concern is fruits and veggies and eating raw seeds and nuts. Stuff like eating raw peas out of your garden is going to be way way higher in lectins since peas are high in lectins and uncooked. Other sources of so called unhealthy foods due to lectins are all nightshade foods, most gourds and their seeds, sunflower seeds, many fruits like melons, bananas, zuccini, cucumbers, green beans, most grains like oats, rice, corn, qinoa and several kinds of nuts and seeds. So if you are going down the list for lectin risk to remove wheat is way donw there. But you wouldn't wanna do that because lectins in a healthy body are extremely effective at preventing disease. And are still a great trade off if you get leaky gut. Because many foods high in lectins will cure leaky gut.

Actually looking up this argument it almost allways leads to websites encouraging their readers to ditch most fruits, vegtables, seeds, nuts and legumes to eat health foods like white rice, big macks (without the bread) and drink milk. Not that you were arguing but those just made everything even more funny.

I won't speak on celiac disease since I don't know anything. Though i will say the concept that its wheat that causes zonulin is only kinda true. Eating a diet low in fiber and high in animal products is correlated with a terrible gut microbiomoe which has a weak gut. So wheat which is almost always eaten in a processed form not whole is related but not even close to the sole cause. So I kinda agree but its a little misleading. Whole grains including wheat are actually associated with less zonalin due to increased fiber intake and other stuff in whole foods that is beneficial to microbiome. But most sources of wheat don't do this.

So for the first points its basically lectins bad because they kill my cancer and temporarily give me leaky gut due to me not eating enough whole foods and fruits and veg. And wheat aren't even a good source of bio available lectin.

Now phytates is slightly more reasonable. Phytates too are strong antioxidates and can revert some cancer cells its in contact with. So like lectins they are very beneficial. Though in practice they have more cons. Phytates are in almost all good sources of calories for vegans. From seeds, nuts, legumes and whole grains. So like its not just wheat is all colorie sources on a vegan diet if you don't wanna go fruitarian. By testing vegans average nutrient deficiencies we can see if eating lots of phytates at every meal which is common for vegans causes a risk.

Well the common defeciencies are b12, D, zinc, iron and calcium. Which the last three are harder to absorb due to phytates. But this problem isn't solved by vegans getting rid of wheat. As all legumes, most whole grains, most seeds and most nuts have lots of phytates. So the only way to prevent massive calorie deficite would be animal prodcuts. Which is an incredibly silly thing to do as the problems of eating that is way worse than amenia or lack of calcium. So its not really wheat is almost all vegan calorie sources that is the problem with phytates.

And for those who have a iron or calcium deficiency you have to work out a system to just get those nutrients in a special way. Which just circumvents the problem while leaving you with all those great phytates which I might add revert cancer and are extremely protective anti oxidant.

Its very silly logic overall that makes no sense if you know more than the basics. Literally complaining about the risks of eating antioxidants and anticancer agents because of relatively minor problems to the benefits. Like advocating for smoking because it prevents auto immune flareups.

I use dr gregor as a useful link agregator for studies. If you are reviewing if I'm just making shit up his summaries could be helpful.

https://nutritionfacts.org/2021/03/11/are-lectins-in-food-good-or-bad-for-you/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-heal-a-leaky-gut-with-diet/

This has most of the info on lectins

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073751/

deficiencies of vegans

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/phytates-for-the-prevention-of-cancer/

compilation of studies on phytates risks and attack on cancer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249911/

benefits of anti oxidants and why oxidative stress can cause harm

I added a little bit from just knowledge off the top of my head from knowing biology that is not cited.

Fun fact, I wrote this one time then when I went to copy the links from studies my browser just like cleared the text box so I wrote this twice haha.

Funnily enough I thought about writting my interpretation of the bigu diet in taoism. Which is extremely against eating wheat. And I had a not literal interpretation of it since I don't think wheat is bad.

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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

Omg ziq the source is hillarious. I found the origina source. It's literally a homeschool blog of a Christian mom who sells books like "how to biblically teach your children sex Ed" and has other fantastic nutrition advice on why lard is a health food and how Americans are actually not eating enough salt.

Your source literally think Americans don't eat enough hamburgers lol. I presume you read some thing else and just found a source that says similar things. So I'm not really criticizing. Just thought it was funny.

Plus another less sus website stole the article so ziq could have never gone on the christian mom site. Sometimes citing weirdos just happens so it's not big deal. Other than being funny to imagine ziq reading American conservative blogs in their free time.

https://www.intoxicatedonlife.com/why-is-wheat-bad-for-you/

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

ask for a source for my throwaway comment based on an instinct, get a source.

not sure where i got it, i just did a search and pasted the first thing that came back that seemed relevant

if a christian mum was the primary source, that doesn't really discount her knowledge about wheat or more likely her ability to summarize other sources

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lettuceLeafer wrote

Damn I just got a scathing anarchist burn. It's kinda embarrassing how I got out anarchied into being the incel in a incel vs Chad meme.

Chad: X is true

Incel: source please

Chad: give source

Incel: here is my well through rebuttal with proper citation it took me hours of research. Pushes up glasses

Chad: idk I just had a feeling that it was true.then when u asked for a source I just gave you the fist result of google I didn't bother to read

Very funny but also kinda embarrassing lol

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ziq OP wrote

sorry lettuce i didn't read your long comment yet, i'm pretty burned out from fighting off all the reddit kids today, will read it at work tomorrow

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lettuceLeafer wrote

No you misunderstand me. I thought it was a really funny premise that I enjoyed and wasn't upset or cared if you replied. it's a very funny nihilistic anti intellectual situation I don't think of that was neat.

I mostly clacker my tongue because I like having reasons to read scientific papers and talk about scientific jargon. Of you don't want to read it I couldn't care less.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

So the only sources of lectin you need to worry about is like eating raw wheat or types of whole wheat with minimal cooking.

Does that include muesli?

My instinct is wheat is fucking gross and I don't see how anyone could think to eat it from looking at it growing wild. They're hard sharp, dry seeds that look like you'd choke to death trying to swallow them. When I added some wheat (noodles) to my diet after 15 years of raw vegan, it was really hard for me to digest it.

Because the standard american diet is horrible. Processed foods and meat consumption feed negative gut bacteria and muscles out healthy gut bacteria which is highly associated with reducing zonulin levels and strengthening the walls of intestines. So if people just ate a diet of whole plant foods to begin with they would have a way lower risk of getting leaky gut from lectins killing cancer. Not to mention if they eat a diet with a moderate amount of lectins they would be less likely to get the cancer in the first place.

I'm back to just eating salad, nuts and fruit, plus muesli with oat milk. Eating rice (and occasionally noodles and a handful of times homemade pizza) was fucking me up (went from 70kg to 100kg somehow). Now I'm almost back to my normal weight.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

muesli

No clue how many lectins it has. But almost all plants have them so it's likely they have some. So it just depends how you cook.

When I added some wheat (noodles)

While I don't think the average person should worry about wheat flour I don't really think it's a great thing to eat. I think it's always way better to just eat whole plant foods. So I don't really think eating flour based products is a great idea. Tho I think where are way more concerning things like sugar or milk. Wheat is more minor. But I think just processing and removing the less desirable parts of food is usually a bad. So hopefully I don't come across sounding like I think eating like noodles n stuff doesn't have problems.

My instinct is wheat is fucking gross and I don't see how anyone could think to eat it from looking at it growing wild. They're hard sharp, dry seeds that look like you'd choke to death trying to swallow them.

The taste of wheat kernels that aren't fully dry is way better. I wouldn't wanna eat a bowl of dry wheat but fresh stuff still with moisture would be tolerable. Idk people in the past eat a whole ton of stuff I would find gross. Wheat is prob one of the less strange culprits.

it was really hard for me to digest it.

Oh I believe that. Usually eliminating food then adding it back to diet is pretty hard.

And for rice I can see how u gain weight. Tho I don't really care about weight for health reasons tbh. Unless it's giving u a mobility problem I dont have much evidence to be concerned with weight. But if you're happy to be 70 instead of 100 I'm glad u are 70

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kin wrote

Seitan no more

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asterism wrote (edited )

While we are on the subject how is "Seitan" supposed to be pronounced?

I pronounce it Satan because I find it hilarious but I actually have no clue.

edit: its like the two words say and tan I googled it.

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kin wrote

I often say SaTan too, its more fun this way.

Whenever in doubt I use something like forvo to see how different people pronounce it

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lettuceLeafer wrote

I wrote so much in the defense of wheat lol. Though I don't feel bad after eating gluten so I can eat it. Though funnily enough I don't actually consume wheat products at home.

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moonlune wrote

No bread? No pasta? That's like both halves of my diet lol

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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

Most of the time grocery stores only sell sliced bread where I live. Plus if the do sell bread it's way overpriced compared to oats or rice.

Pasta because I can get way more nutrients from oats for a cheaper price that takes way less time to make. And I don't really like making pasta recipies.

You live in France what Americans eat as bread doesn't even classify as the same food lol

Actually funnily enough the most common kind of bread in the US contains a chemical dangerous enough it's based in the European union. Lol

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moonlune wrote

True sorry I was being too french there haha

How do you cook oats outside of porridge?

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lettuceLeafer wrote

I either eat them raw, eat it raw in water or eat it warmed up in microwave.

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