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OdiousOutlaw wrote

With this hurricane coming, I question the judgment of my mother and step-father for deciding to move to fucking Florida.

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mofongo wrote

I'm impressed by the sharp turn it made, I was getting ready for it and last minute, nothing.

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lori wrote

Its going to turn again when it hits land keep in mind. If it does that and stays on the coast it could still hurt.

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Starting to look like I'm stuck here; wasted around $60 trying to get a bus out. They said they sent me a text telling me I'd have to try again tomorrow; I never got it. They also said they'd send me a confirmation for a ticket that I also never received.

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emma wrote

Another day at work where I'm doing nothing but having a metaphorical wank.

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

Sounds troublesome! At least with a non-metaphorical wank you get something out of it.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

Making friends in uni is kinda hard tbh

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Yep. Took me about 2 years to make an actual acquaintance.

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BrowseDuringClass1917 wrote

Yeah, my roommate is the only person I’m really chill with. I also live in the smallest dorm building in my school which really limits my options with friends and I don’t really like the people I’ve met so far. I just feel like, even though I’m not great at being social, whenever I want to try and turn a new leaf I just get put in the worst, most awful circumstances for accomplishing what I want.

That said, club season is starting soon so I’m gonna get involved in clubs, mainly plant and agriculture clubs, but I’m also going to be looking into the options for leftist student groups. So far the only anti-capitalist one I know is the All-Marxist-Leninist-Union.

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mofongo wrote

I'll have to get a second job, fml.

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existential1 wrote

Happy Friday everyone. This week, my partner had a long talk with me about how even though I got a significant raise this year, and will be getting another in November, I need to look at a different career path.

Apparently my dissatisfaction with what I do for money has been bleeding into the rest of my life. To me, I was ok with suffering since the job pays well, has good benefits, and would allow us to live a decent life with kids and stuff. My partner pointed out that my work choices work for everyone but myself and I need to do something that works for me first, and if we're poorer and less secure for it, thats ok.

So now I'm like, damn. What do?

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

A conversation-starter around veganism that I got from elsewhere which might be worth having, since lately it's been a big messy topic. Thoughts/critiques welcome:


Since the recent meme on veganism seems to have sparked quite the debate, I just wanted to clarify my position once and for all on the matter.
Please bear with me, as I am going to go into exhaustive detail. I am not even going to be able to get into the socio-economic and imperialist dimensions since that will require even more nuance - so much in fact that I do not even feel prepared to tackle them at this point in time (I encourage those of you who are better equipped to delve into these subjects to do so in the comments) - so I will focus on the environmental and agricultural aspects. After all, that is my wheelhouse.
I want to start off by clarifying that in general, I have a lot of respect for people who choose to go vegan and not try to push it upon others or hail it as "the best solution" to the ongoing ecological crisis. Animal welfare is a legitimate concern, and caring about it enough that one is willing to make very drastic adjustments to their habits is commendable and demonstrates great ethical fortitude. Industrialized animal agriculture is horrible both in terms of its environmental impact and the way animals are treated. Additionally, going vegan or even just substantially reducing animal product consumption DOES significantly reduce one's ecological footprint. Such a lifestyle change is of course beneficial provided it is paired with an awareness of the fact that our environmental problems are systemic and cannot be addressed by making individual changes to our choices as consumers alone. Reducing the consumption of animal products, especially those produced in an environmentally destructive manner, is something that is to be encouraged in a constructive way and that people should ABSOLUTELY do for the sake of the environment, again, provided that it is paired with the willingness to push for systemic change. HOWEVER, the idea that having the entire world go vegan and adopt a wholly plant-based food system will enable us to avert mass extinction and a climate apocalypse (as many of you seem to think) is absurd, nonsensical, and - believe it or not - horribly counterproductive if we actually want to create a world where we produce and consume our food sustainably.
I have dedicated my entire career to sustainable agriculture. One thing that I have learned from my journey into environmentally friendly food production so far is that although current rates of meat consumption are unsustainable, having the entire world adopt a wholly plant-based food system is not the answer. The answer is a regenerative, ecological food system grounded in a food web-based approach which incorporates animals in a carefully planned and intentional manner to restore degraded ecosystems, improve existing food production systems, and enrich the Earth's ecology and biodiversity as a whole.
You see, the problem is not posed by animal agriculture in general, the problem is posed by mass meat consumption enabled by high impact, industrialized agriculture where large areas of crops are grown specifically to feed animals, which of course, is horribly inefficient. At a deeper level, the problem is the fact that ALL food is currently grown as a commodity to be sold for a profit rather than to actually feed people and provide them with a healthy, low-impact diet. Capitalism is at the heart of this problem, not the production of animal products, and a plant-based food system fails to address the structural causes of modern industrialized agriculture's destructive effects on the environment and on human health.
Modern plant-based agriculture is almost as bad as modern animal agriculture - the only appreciable difference is that modern animal agriculture is more concentrated and demanding in terms of space and resources. Modern plant agriculture transforms the soil into a sterile factory floor for the production of genetically homogenous crops that can be easily processed and sold as standardized commodities oftentimes thousands of miles away from where they were originally grown. The practices that are required to stupport this methodology - the use of energy intensive synthetic fertilizers and heavy equipment, dousing fields with potent synthetic pesticides that inflict collateral damage on wildlife and destroy farmland biodiversity, large monoculture plantings, and a colossal food distribution infrastructure - have laid waste to our watersheds, our soils, our insect and vertebrate populations, and have contributed significantly to climate change. If we got rid of industrialized animal agriculture overnight, surprisingly little would actually change globally, and any positive impact that would make would be largely erased by the time the world population stabilizes at 10-11 billion by mid-century as a result of increased demand for food and commodity crops like palm oil. A plant-based only food system also eschews the potentiality of the incorporation of animal agriculture in ecologically-minded ways to make human food systems more efficient and sustainable than possible with only plant-based methods. In the end, as I have learned, ecologically minded animal agriculture may end up being one of the things that helps to save us from falling victim to an ecological and climate catastrophe of our own creation.
[Continued in the following comment]

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

[Continued from parent comment]
Permaculturalists and regenerative agriculturalists understand the value of incorporating animals into a sustainable food system. In non-human ecosystems, animals are an indispensable component of food webs, provide vital ecosystem services, and can act as specialized consumers of food sources that other organisms (such as humans) are not capable of utilizing. The same would go for an ecological food system. Such an approach would be more efficient, more sustainable, more resilient, and more restorative to the environment than a plant-based food system. I can think of several examples of methods that would see implementation within such a system from my own experience and knowledge off of the top of my head:
Black soldier fly larvae are excellent at utilizing food waste materials that are difficult to compost. They very quickly convert this waste into animal protein that can be processed and fed directly to other livestock, such as chickens or fish. Humans can also directly make use of black soldier fly larvae protein. Their waste products can be composted down further or used as an organic fertilizer.
- Carbon farming. Large grazing animals such as cows and bison, when managed effectively and employed in the right context (not in rainforest that has been converted to pasture, obviously), can enhance grassland ecosystem biodiversity and catalyze a process that causes grassland soils to sequester large amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere - at a rate comparable to that of forests. Converting the vast expanses of degraded and desertified grasslands that straddle the world's semi-arid regions over to sustainable grazing has been proposed as a viable method to help reverse climate change. There have been studies showing that sustainable grazing practices can also control invasive grass species and encourage native species in grassland communities.
- Aquaponics, when employing fish food sources grown from recaptured food and agricultural waste materials, is the most low input and water efficient intensive agricultural method that has ever been devised. It involves the farming of fish and plants together in a closed, recirculating aquatic ecosystem. Aquaponic systems utilize fish waste as a nutrient source for hydroponic vegetable production, which is already many times more efficient and productive in terms of space and inputs than growing in soil. It is precisely incorporation of an aquatic food web that centers fish that makes it so efficient - about twice as efficient in terms of water use and six times as efficient in terms of nutrient inputs as conventional hydroponics (which is itself up to 10 times more water efficient than growing in soil) - all without the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. It takes a living, biodiverse aquatic food web comprised of a wide variety of both microscopic and macroscopic animal life to efficiently utilize nutrient inputs to produce food in a manner that is simply not possible in plant-only hydroponics and soil. In terms of space efficiency - sky is literally the limit, as aquaponic systems can ascend into the third dimension by utilizing vertical growing methods, increasing land use efficiency by orders of magnitude. Aquaponics also has the added benefit of yielding appreciable quantities of farmed fish as a side crop. Fish food for aquaponics can be manufactured from black soldier fly larvae and sustainable forage crops (including nitrogen fixing crops that require no synthetic ammoniacal fertilizers) that can be grown using only water and fertilizers made from recaptured organic waste such as duckweed, Azolla sp., and Moringa oleifera. Many fish species (namely fish in the carp family and tilapia) are also happy to consume food and agricultural scraps that people will not eat. Moreover, the waste products from the production and consumption of fish add an incredible amount of nutrients to compost. This is what I do for my career, and I know all too well how much it outperforms conventional plant-only agricultural methods. 
- Chickens and other domesticated birds, like black soldier fly larvae, are excellent at converting food scraps and agricultural waste into forms that can be very effectively re-integrated as inputs into a sustainable food system. Ask any organic farmer and they will tell you that chicken manure is one of the best fertilizers there is. Not only can it be applied directly onto fields, it can also serve as a food source for certain species of fish in aquaponics. Such aquaponic food systems that integrate chickens are currently being developed and trialed all across the world, namely by local innovators in sub-Saharan Africa. And of course, chickens produce eggs and can be consumed for their meat.
- Insects in general make a nutritious food source, and many experts have been rightly predicting that insect protein will become an important part of peoples' diets. Once again, insects are very good at utilizing recaptured agricultural and food wastes and converting them into something edible for humans.
The list goes on. These are but a few examples, and all of the methods I described do not require the dedication of substantial areas of land specifically for cultivating livestock feed. Any space required by animals using these methods are either minimal thanks to polyculture and efficient methods of space utilization or are able to be integrated into functional natural ecosystems without degrading them.
The point is that advocating for a plant based food system is short-sighted. Yes, industrialized animal agriculture is horrible, and we should be advocating for an end to it. But we should also be advocating for an end to the modern industrial agricultural system in general.
As we mobilize against industrialized animal agriculture and the system that encapsulates it, we must not fool ourselves into rejecting alternative animal agriculture methods that offer the promise of a sustainable food ecosystem that a plant-based food system cannot possibly hope to parallel in a million years. We also must not delude ourselves into believing that transitioning the whole of humanity to such a plant-based system would adequately address the dysfunctionality of our modern food infrastructure. There are many other problems with it when it comes to the social dimensions of what it would take to transition to a plant-based food system that I again am not going to discuss at this time, as I already went into enough detail for one post. But, in short, having the entire world go vegan means shooting ourselves in the foot. Last but certainly not least, let's be clear. If you otherwise shame people who care about the planet for not being vegan but refuse to support methods that can improve the efficiency of food production several times over, suck billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere, and restore ecosystems that have been absolutely devastated by industrialized agriculture because you think they "infringe upon animal rights," you can at least stop weaponizing environmental issues to push your ideology when they were obviously not the priority for you to begin with.


Rare and Endangered Memes for Edgy Environmentalists

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Nuktuk wrote

I think the two most obvious issues with this are as follows:

  1. Framing "sustainable agriculture" as a solution runs us into a few problems. Solutions as a means of fighting issues is very Enlightenment in nature. Prescribing a particular alternative shuts out the possibility for other alternatives to prop up. To talk about how monoculture is an issue is very useful. It allows us to engage with the way the world around us functions, how our food is produced and how to combat the effects monoculture has. Talking of "sustainable agriculture" as a solution and not merely an avenue to experiment with prevents us from engaging with other means of acquiring food that maybe we haven't previously considered. Its very telling when OP states "I just wanted to clarify my position once and for all on the matter." OP has made up their mind on the matter.

  2. OP is reductive to the ecological reasons one might be so called "vegan" (ie. acts like abstaining from eating flesh or sabotaging slaughter houses). They made it clear they wouldn't get into the socio-economic/imperialist arguments but they fail to engage with the way the current or their proposed food system affects non-humans. So we have a solution which does little for those that live a nomadic/non-industrial life, nor those that are actually being farmed/living in these damaged ecosystems. Solutions only get in the way of the organic, rigorous, ever adapting means of living that challenge the world around us.

Apart from that I think this is mostly agreeable. I no longer refer to myself as a vegan for reasons relevant to a lot of the points raised by OP. Its nice to see more people criticising the vegan movement for its dogma and its Green Industry nonsense particularly.

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rot wrote

why are they playing cardi b so loud? why? why is it at such a volume that I can identify it as cardi? why can I recognize cadri b's voice through the walls?

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NOISEBOB wrote

I just made a list of 186 political activists currently imprisoned...

I feel sad. :(

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