Submitted by readinglistmirror in lobby

After the good advice I received here, I have decided to switch to developing my non-sectarian, pan-left fork of Raddle from Postmil over to Lemmy because it has significantly superior technology behind it. It's still coming (I've already purchased the .com) however because of the change in platform it is going to be delayed a little while longer. It will be worth the wait, count on it. Thank you and god bless.

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ChaosAnarchy wrote

The tankie circle is coming full... circle.

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admincritiquethrowaway wrote

Being welcoming to all leftists doesn't really hint at tankie to me since they're the most sectarian bunch of all...

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desert wrote

i’d rather god not bless me

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stagn wrote

I felt like opening a post-panleftist version of your site

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ziq wrote

I'll bring the george carlin quotes

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SnowCode wrote

LMAO. "Significantly superior technology". I half agree with this: Rust is awesome. But JavaScript is horrible on Lemmy. I like postmill because it doesn't need JavaScript so it's fast on low end devices.

non-sectarian, pan-left

Hmm. That sounds to me like just letting in sectarian tankies in so yayy /s.

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capitan wrote

There are non js clients. But the main web client is pretty bad.

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mima wrote

If you need an "app" to properly use a site then that site is shit anyway

Raddle/Postmill doesn't have an app because it doesn't need to. The interface is both desktop (as in real desktop, not those fake ones that are really just mobile versions made bigger) and mobile-friendly, very lightweight, progressive (JavaScript and CSS not required, they're optional upgrades if you have them), and accessible. This is how to make a good link aggregator. Not this federation, JavaScript-heavy (and required in the main web client!), noncompliant with web standards (they use draft standards even though they're not final yet, LOL) bullshit.

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SnowCode wrote

Hm, there is no app as far as I can remember for Lemmy. It's just the web client.

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mima wrote

There are three native apps according to this page: https://join-lemmy.org/apps/

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SnowCode wrote

LMAO, when I was around Lemmy I remember they were very opposed to the idea of having a mobile app.

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capitan wrote

Yeah I actually prefer being in control of the client rather than running arbitrary JavaScript served from the wacky Lemmy instance names.

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SnowCode wrote

Ye I understand, but back then I think fédération wasn't even considered.

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mima wrote

Rust is fine for systems programming, but web development? Please no. And that goes for other compiled languages too. Just use PHP which is designed for that purpose.

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SnowCode wrote (edited )

I don't see why it would be a problem actually. Rust is meant to be general purpose and it's really fast. I don't see why it would have to be PHP.

Honestly I don't see any reason to not use Rust, of course you can prefer another language but I don't see any inherent problem at using Rust for web Dev. Quite the opposite actually.

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mima wrote (edited )

Well just because it's general purpose doesn't mean you should use it for everything. :P Sure, Rust can do the job, any compiled language can be used for web dev, but are the trade-offs worth it? Compiled code from Rust does go fast, but building Rust code is painfully slow in my experience. IMO, development time should always trump out performance. And if you need more performance in PHP, JIT compilation is most likely enough for your use-case anyway.

PHP afaik is memory safe, so even in that front Rust doesn't provide any benefit. And you will still have to sanitize user inputs (which is the more prominent threat you have to deal with) whatever language you're using anyway...

So really I don't see any reason why one should deal with low-level stuff in web development. If you're writing a database like MariaDB, sure code that in Rust. But something that interfaces with the web like MediaWiki and Postmill? Just code it in a tried, tested, more mature language that is written for that exact purpose like PHP.

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SnowCode wrote (edited )

I don't feel like building stuff in Rust is slow, it's maybe just a question of being used to it.

Also in Rust a lot of things are done by the compiler. I asked some people that know more about web Dev in rust than me about it. And they said for instance, when you handle SQL, the compiler will check the SQL requests against a dev database to ensure they are valid. Other than that, Rust forces every single case to be handled, and has a very rich type system in order to make things that shouldn't exist impossible to represent in the program. This is all done for errors to happen at compile time instead of runtime to make the programs as reliable as possible.

For SQL again, sqlx supports and forces the use of prepared SQL queries to sanitize user input.

In a nutshell, Rust is built for being fast AND as reliable as possible, by preventing many errors from happening at runtime. So in that sense it seems Rust is more reliable than PHP.

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emma wrote

I don't feel like building stuff in Rust is slow, it's maybe just a question of being used to it.

PHP has a unique execution model where an interpreter (usually an Apache module or php-fpm, a FastCGI server) sits and waits for incoming requests, then executes the script corresponding to the request and cleans up everything (global/class variables, runtime settings, etc.) after it. I've not developed in Rust, but I have in Python and Node, and having to deal with reloader tools to achieve the same 'save file, switch to browser, reload' development cycle is just painful in comparison--either they're too slow to act on changes, too fragile, or both.

In terms of runtime performance, this execution model is slow due to having to bootstrap the framework on every request, but assuming you used an HTTP abstraction like PSR-7 or Symfony's HttpFoundation, you always have the option of using an application server that preserves state between requests. The reverse, having the option to interpret on demand, is not true when developing web applications in Rust.

In a nutshell, Rust is built for being fast AND as reliable as possible, by preventing many errors from happening at runtime. So in that sense it seems Rust is more reliable than PHP.

I don't think anyone would dispute this. However, if you're disciplined and use types and type hints throughout your PHP code, you can use static analysis tools to obliterate whole ranges of programming errors, just like with Rust's compile-time checks. They aren't nearly as complete, sure, but the faster pace of development achievable with PHP, not to mention its rich ecosystem for web development, make this a tradeoff worthy of consideration.

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ziq wrote

Awesome. Can't wait to see the fruit of your loins or something.

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fortmis wrote

god bless Tankarchia

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