Comments

You must log in or register to comment.

black_fox wrote

firefighters tend to be pretty reactionary unfortunately and their unions side with the cop unions almost always

15

AnarchoDoom wrote (edited )

I'd avoid putting everyone in a same basket.

It depends where, and whether their unions side with cop unions. In my area they're independent and got an history of not collaborating due to cop "interventions" fucking up with their jobs (like cops using their equipment without prior asking, making it harder to act quickly in a fire rescue operation). But the cops created their own BS "fire department", that is a fire prevention division, who're basically just cops and never do any fire rescue...

Firefighters' job ain't reactionary by design, unlike the cops' jobs.

3

Kinshavo wrote

Why not refuse the whole idea of a dedicated firefighters corp?

Not speaking from a pragmatic place, maybe at industrial scale it is not feasible, but why not facilitate access to the tools and training for everyone interested and first aid stuff too. It's like learn to cook or read, rescue techniques are useful.

Sorry to enter in the middle of the convo

9

AnarchoDoom wrote (edited )

Why not refuse the whole idea of a dedicated firefighters corp?

"Separation", "specialization", or "division of labor"... there's different ways to call it, but it's an old thing in society. Subdivisions keep getting created to justify "experts" or "technicians" getting paychecks for some over-compartimented jobs. The more a society becomes managerial the more you get this stuff.

Of course you don't need a military when everyone is trained and armed to defend themselves, as well as knows the secrets on how to build a nuke. Same for firefighters.

2

bloodrose wrote

The argument I've seen is that no one says "fuck the fire department" because the fire department isn't patrolling the neighborhood and arresting people like cops are. If the fire department worked like cops, they'd be rolling up on people outside having a smoke and "randomly" searching them for illegal fireworks.

Other than the fact that the fire-fighters themselves have a proclivity towards conservatism and toxic masculinity, what is systemically wrong with fire-fighters? I have heard no arguments about them and would love to know more.

14

annikastheory wrote

This is just my thoughts on it. Honestly this is the most I have ever really sat and fleshed them out. Probably going to repeat a little of what I said in my two other comments. I am not certain that the issue is big enough, or happens enough, to be considered systemic, it may be systemic I don't totally know. Also to be super clear my issue would be with fire-fighters in state-run fire departments not necessarily fire-fighters as a whole. I also only have experience and knowledge with fire departments in the US. Obviously fire departments suffer from any issue that a state-run organization would, but I have two issues specific to them.

My first issue would be that sometimes firefighters refuse to fight fires. For example a fire department in rural tennesee let a house burn down two years in a row because the home owners didn't pay the fire service fee for that year [1] [2]. Or the time in Detroit when the fire department took a selfie in front of a house that was burning [3]. That particular instance may have a racial component as well since the fire department was all white and in a black neighborhood. Lastly, and I will be honest I am having trouble finding a source for this one so take that as you will, but as Lettuce said they will let houses burn if they are squatted and the police tell them to let it burn.

My second issue would be that firefighters will work hand in hand with the police, in particular they will hose protestors/rioters. The most culturally significant instance in US history of this is the Birmingham campaign in 1963, I am getting lazy now so just do an image search on that one. I am not sure how often this happens though because many police stations actually have their own water hoses now, or they will borrow them from the fire department. Still the willingness of firefighters to cooperate with the police is an issue worth pointing out.

I am not sure that this proves anything exactly. However It is enough for me to be wary of fire departments. It also makes me think that fire departments carry some (not all) of the problems we find in more militaristic organizations such as the police.

10

bloodrose wrote

Thank you for the well researched reply!

The most culturally significant instance in US history of this is the Birmingham campaign in 1963

The firefighter PR is strong. Because I never even associated them with that. But, like you say, even if the cops did it, where did they get a fire hose from in the first place? I can't believe it never cross my mind! It just went right over my head!

A city I lived in a few years back had a fire department and police department that shared a budget. Guess who got all the gear? The police. Because no one would give less money to -gasp!- firefighters! Everyone in the city knew it was a scam. You'd drive down the street and see 4 cop cars and people who weren't from the city would be like "oh my god! what is happening?" and us locals would be like "someone probably jay-walked." They had so many cops and fancy ass sports car police cars.

8

ShadesPath wrote

From what I've heard, there's a racism and sexism issue in firefighting that often goes unchecked.

6

zoom_zip wrote

fucking fire department, taking away my autonomy to die in a house fire

8

lettuceLeafer OP wrote

fucking fire department forcing squatters to watch their houses burn down and fucking fire department charging poor people thousands of dollars for a glorified uber. Maybe extorting the poor and vulnerable is bad and purposefully letting homes burn bc the cops told you to let it burn is bad actually.

9

bloodrose wrote

charging poor people thousands of dollars for a glorified uber.

Fire departement != ambulance.

Ambulances are run by private companies. The fire department calls them for you but they are not the operators of the ambulances.

When my house burned down and I had smoke inhalation, they called one for me but said if I didn't want one, to just sign that I didn't want it. I took the ambulance ride because I was concerned about insurance stuff if I didn't but I could've not and driven myself to the hospital.

8

zoom_zip wrote

i'm getting the impression a lot of the responses here are US-centric because fire and ambulance services elsewhere are not so ingrained with the capitalist system

maybe i'm wrong?

10

bloodrose wrote

Yes, I should have mentioned it was US-centric in my response to LL. I understood their reference to "glorified uber" for "thousands of dollars" as an ambulance because in the US, we have private ambulances that charge thousands of dollars for a ride to the hospital with some amount of medical monitoring/assistance along the way.

Ambulances in the US are private companies. Fire services are either state-run or volunteer-run.

7

moonlune wrote

Ambulances in the US are private companies.

We're getting more and more private ambulances here too (EU, it's probably similar for other EU countries). They don't turn on their siren & lights most of the time, and are glorified taxis for people without life threatening medical conditions, are over-costed and siphon money from private insurances (maybe public money too but idk).

That wouldn't be much of a problem, but they're cannibalizing our regular free ambulances that end up understaffed & overworked. I feel like they'll disappear in a few years.

Fucking EU copying broken USA infrastructures :(

6

zoom_zip wrote

equally i only have a european perspective on this, i guess we are lucky that our healthcare is free or subsidised. i had to call an ambulance for my kid a year or so ago and i am grateful for the paramedics that came and gave her the treatment she needed with no charge.

they might be tied to the state re: funding, but there’s no way you can equate fire-fighters or paramedics to cops (which was done elsewhere in the thread), unless i am massively missing something or unless there is something about the way US fire-fighters and paramedics operate that is not pervasive elsewhere?

5

annikastheory wrote

Yeah I too also like not burning alive but when it comes down to it the fire department is still a dog of the state. If you are protesting something (or rioting) and the state doesn't want to look too bad they will send the fire department to hose you down and they will do it.

6

lettuceLeafer OP wrote

honestly I feel like firefighters are kinda like cops in there are a small amount of people who argue cops or firefighters have helped people. Though the regular work of firefighters and cops is very negative. Tho firefighters get more of a pass since they are significantly less shitty and do a larger amount of helpful stuff. Tho they still really suck overall.

For instance just bc someones counsin once removed was dealing with an abusive ex and the police department watched her home for a couple days so she felt safe in her home its still safe to want to abolish the police despite the cousin once removed having a positive experience with the police. This same critique applies to firefighters and medical proffesionals but the logic is different for many anarchists which is a bit weird but kinda makes sense since people arent nearly as motivated to abolish the firedepartment

3

annikastheory wrote

To be 100% fair depending on where you live, there are firefighters that are volunteer run and don't have a reliance on the state. They are literally just people doing what needs to be done to protect their communities, which is great. Thats in general what I want, people doing what needs to be done (fighting fires) without state intervention. But that is 100% not the case where I am, where I am firefighters (even volunteer ones) are dogs of the state.

9

moonlune wrote (edited )

I would if I could but for now I just buy their calendars.

7

Passive_Nihlist wrote

Fuck the fire department, and the paramedics.

5

RadicalConstructivist wrote

kinky

3

Passive_Nihlist wrote

Please do not sexualize my hatred for the medical industry.

1

inthedustofthisplanet wrote (edited )

Yeah, there is a lot of issues with the medical industry, but most paramedics I know suffer from severe trauma and are severely underpaid for what they often volunteer to do. Unlike the police and fire department EMS is not considered an essential service in most states in the US, and this does not make their field eligible for federal funding.

It seems to make more sense to attack the establishment itself as opposed to people who often do this out of care for others.

Now I have plenty of issues with fire departments, especially with how glamorized the field is. Not to mention most fire departments are ran like literal micro-military branches.

3

Passive_Nihlist wrote

Personally I do not really care about the suffering of state actors, whether it's as obvious as the police or more subtle like parents. Yes everyone suffers due to Leviathan, including the cops, politicians and capitalists but that dies not make me sympathetic to their complacency in these systems of domination. If a paramedic does their job out of a sense of care, it is just as heinous to me as those who do it just for money or even those who would like the power.

You say it makes more sense to attack the establishment, I do not see how paramedics aren't part of the "establishment". The state is not just lifeless institutions but also those inside them who do the work of reproducing everyday life.

1

inthedustofthisplanet wrote (edited )

Ah, okay. I guess my buddy who volunteers as an EMS for no pay is just a state operative.

4

Passive_Nihlist wrote

Yeah

−3

inthedustofthisplanet wrote

This is your brain on ideology.

7

Passive_Nihlist wrote

What is ideological about my stance?

−1

inthedustofthisplanet wrote (edited )

Nihilism is an ideology, like anything else our brains can conjure up. You have a developed belief system and stick to it.

3

Passive_Nihlist wrote

This does not answer my question. What about the analysis I have outlined, of how institutions are upheld by the humans within them, do you disagree with?

−2

lettuceLeafer OP wrote

while I agree I think there is some problem with conflating being the receiving end of sex to be a negative thing prob rooted in misogyny and homophobia. So not seeing being fucked as an insult is prob for the best. Tho I def get why you are upset. I should have just used alternative wording tho I couldn't figure out how to make the same joke without saying fuck the fire department.

2

Passive_Nihlist wrote

Personally I find your analysis lacking to say the least but my comment was not directed at your use of fuck, it was directed at the person who responded to my comment saying kinky.

−3

lettuceLeafer OP wrote

I know. I was trying to be a centrist validating your feelings but saying the person who commented was also kinda doing a thing I like. I am really towing the middle ground lol

3

Passive_Nihlist wrote

I hate people who try to appease others instead of stating their actual opinions.

−6

lettuceLeafer OP wrote

that is my actual opinion tho.

6

Passive_Nihlist wrote

Then I guess I don't understand what you were getting at with your comment about centrism. The phrase "validating your feelimgs" made me think you are not saying what you'd like to say, especially since your comment started with "I know" I assume in response to my staying of disagreement with it. So is your original comment the stance you stand by then or do you have some other opinion that you could clarify?

−2

lettuceLeafer OP wrote

Ah I was being tougue in cheek about the centrism part since my actual opinion had me capitulating to both parties.

My opinion is that the fire department sucks and I agree with you that the joke about you having a kink for fire departments and not actually like them is annoying.

In the other hand the concept that being fucked is bad Is kinda mysogynistic. So I think not acknowledging being fucked as an insult is a good idea so I also kina like the person replying in an annoying way.

So basically yeah the fire department sucks, it's annoying for people to make a joke rather than taking your feeling seriously sucks but also implying that being the receiving partner in sex is a bad thing is something that should be discouraged. So I agree and disagree with you and the person who responded 2 u

6

Kinshavo wrote

In some places the firefighters are actually gendarmerie with different uniforms, so ACAB...

5

AnarchoDoom wrote

"...but but they're Workers!"

"Cops and prison guards are Workers too, dimwit."

1