Recent comments in /f/indigenous

mustard wrote

We have been living on this patch of land for 15,000 yrs with no damage to any habitat, until settlers came over

i think this is false. colonizing, invading humans have been violently destroying indigenous habitat, extinguishing other species ,acting white, since before the onset of civilisation. Sapiens are indigenous of the African continent where we originally evolved by harmony among other great apes and started in developing our special techniques and cultural practices . as human population expands we inevitably affect the ecosystem and so we essentially learn to honor an ethic of reciprocity for well-being among all relations. to exist in the absence of that sense of honor is neglect the melodious colors of Life

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ego_mutt wrote

What you're saying is true but too often pragmatism is ignored in the favor of Idpol. Choosing not to be vegan specifically because of your background is ridiculous, and blaming the average white person today for the actions of those before them is also ridiculous. I know that what my white (half) of ancestors did was horrendous, but I'm not them.

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Raven wrote (edited )

So many strawmen. So little logic. Indigenous way of life is different from white culture is because the latter in practice, is destructive to the environment. We have been living on this patch of land for 15,000 yrs with no damage to any habitat, until settlers came over. I don't know why the fuck are you even trying to argue that indigenous culture and practice is the same as colonialism.

Also I'm a vegan so your argument is moot as fuck.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

I think you are arguing against something that has not been directly articulated, and which I'll definitely say I don't espouse: the idea that it is anti-indigenous to support vegan diets. That, in fact, is the strawman I see here, personally.

I'm not saying that some people don't believe this, and while I hardly agree with it, the reasons for some holding that opinion you can see plainly in real things, like the commodification of quinoa, the weird dysfunctional pseudo-Puritanism of many (usually white) vegans (jumping to criticize other individuals and having no meaningful economic or social analysis of veganism beyond individualism), etc.

So what is being criticized is not the idea of veganism in the abstract, which doesn't actually exist in the world materially. All that veganism is, like any political standpoint, is the material manifestation of that ideology. Right now, its mostly a lot of white libs who think you can alter society through consumption choices, who spend a disproportionate amount of time talking down to other people to generate social capital accumulated for themselves, instead of building solidarity and common affinity to challenge the industrial sources of cruelty with a broad coalition. This is capitalist, it is white, and it definitely is colonial when white people make a particular focus the dietary, productive practices of indigenous people. Llet us not forget that in some cultures, such as the Iñupiat of modern day Alaska & Canada, animals form the basis of literally everything which is used on a daily basis, from clothing to cutlery to ceremonial/spiritual items.

So what I and some other people suggest is that white vegans focus on white culture, which produces the central mechanism for the bulk of the cruelty anyway. Be happy that your privileged identitarian context gives you such a good opportunity to intervene in a wide cross section of the cruelty that concerns, and stop universalizing so hard! Because by doing so, you undermine the goals you seek to achieve, by creating a strawman that people in other contexts will react against.

To the contrary, I am further saying that there are indigenous people who are better suited to make the argument than white people, in those contexts, just from a practical standpoint. Sometimes, by running your mouth as a white or otherwise privileged person, you inadvertently setback the efforts you seek to support.

And in fact, there are already indigenous people who are challenging meat-based diets and cultural norms around hunting in indigenous spaces, because as I have said there is a long legacy of hunting being incentivized in many colonized peoples by settler colonial institutions/markets/societies, so there are postcolonial aspirations which intersect with veganist goals in certain instances. Even if that isn't a prominent trend in a given indigenous community at this time, it's hardly helpful for settler vegans to try and dunk on them for this...it precludes the possibility of indigenous people espousing veganism successfully in those communities, to the degree that veganism is then conflated with white people.

The argument is dumb.

This is an aside, and in no way do I desire to silence you or put down your point in an unfair way, but I believe Raddle is trying to move away from certain language like this, which is regarded as ableist due to the connotation with differently abled people. so i would suggest, in order for your views to hold more currency on the forum, for you to not use that language on the forum. And also, it certainly has given me something to think about IRL, the way that certain language I have used is actually harmful and exclusive to others. Perhaps you will feel the same way, after reflection, but that is your own prerogative.

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Pop wrote (edited )

operate under the assumption that ""whiteness"" is evil

whiteness is an oppressive social construct that benefits light-skinned people of european descent

so yeah it is evil

your general understanding of 'idpol' doesn't seem to take into account structural inequality
so yeah you sound like a racist

the top two comments aren't making the argument that criticising animal eating by indigenous people can't be done because it is anti-indigenous, so you seem highly disingenuous

Animal liberation is a good thing, but in the past every society had to hunt and exploit animals to survive. That is no longer the case

this is not obvious to me at all. how much do you know about plant agriculture's effects on ecological flourishing?
and the things vegans can't get from plants?
and the exploitation of humans that comes from making up for deficiencies in plant-based diets?

Why would we not expect white people to begin to take "pride" in their history, or "culture", or whatever if that's what we actively encourage everyone else to do?

nobody's encouraging people to feel pride. seems we're mostly encouraging people to look at the substantial problems - the animal farming industry - instead of encouraging the continuation of a disgusting colonial paternalism

Privileged people can still do good things and marginalized people can still do bad things.

Duh. nobody here thinks otherwise. your post makes you sound like you didn't even read what was said and you were just too busy in a rush to make racist talking points to bother to address the content

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ego_mutt wrote

To go against the general argument here, no, you're right. The argument is dumb. Arguments like these operate under the assumption that ""whiteness"" is evil, and since white people "invented" veganism (they did not) then veganism must be undesirable as well. In reality, India's indigenous peoples were vegan ~900 years ago and who gives a fuck if the whities can act with empathy?

Its like saying that you can't criticize human sacrifice because its "anti-indigenous". You can't criticize arranged marriages, or wife-owning, or wife-beating, or whatever because its "anti-indigenous". Yeah, white people have done that shit too, but so have indigenous populations. Why are we strawmanning an entire race again?

Animal liberation is a good thing, but in the past every society had to hunt and exploit animals to survive. That is no longer the case. Vegans offer a fairly simple solution to both the destruction of the planet and killing of animals-- veganism. Using Idpol to justify slaughter is pretty weak in my opinion.

This entire thread reminds me of something a tankie said to me once in an argument: "If you're going to embrace identity politics, you have to expect white people to embrace it as well". The thing is, they were kind of right. Why would we not expect white people to begin to take "pride" in their history, or "culture", or whatever if that's what we actively encourage everyone else to do?

Privileged people can still do good things and marginalized people can still do bad things. My ancestors weren't vegan, but I am. I'm not my ancestors and I don't live in their world. Collectivists love to circlejerk their excuses with one another.

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