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Murray moderator wrote (edited )

If you are indeed "familiar" with Black, and I have certainly seen his antics described by people who are much closer to a "lifestylist" way of of thinking than I could ever be being as I have been immune to fads for years, then you should NOTE one obvious thing. The continued tolerance of his vicious antics is OBVIOUS ! TOTAL ! UNEQUIVOCAL ! proof that the ideology of anarchism as it exists in North America has NO ! answer as to how to prevent psychopaths and other criminals from running rampant in whatever vague utopia they may have in mind. Black is not just a psychopath. He glories in it.

What amazes me about the arguments against a REAL anarchist movement is the delusion that their proponents have that a) they are new and b)that their illusionary syndicalist or anarchocommunist opponents have had nothing to say about such matters in the past or even the present.

First of all the various themes of the mishmash that is popular in American anarchism are actually 100s of years old and predate not only anarchism but modern society in general. "Primitivism" ie the "golden age" is thousands of years old.

"Insurrectionism" ie "the Apocalypse" is equally ancient. The arrogance of "bohemianism" may be younger, but it certainly predates the 1840s and Proudhon's declaration of "anarchism". So-called "spirituality" and the belief that so-called "primitive people" have some magical connection to nature also predates anarchism. I could go on and on with other examples, but the point is obvious. The average American anarchist has a grasp of history that it takes a microscope to see.

Similarily it is the height of both arrogance and ignorance to ignore the actual history of REAL anarchism ie when it became a mass movement. The most popular anarchist book in Spanish translation was Kropotkin's 'The Conquest of Bread', and his vision there has NEVER been exceeded by ideological lifestylists and has only rarely been exceeded by those outside of the ideology. Where anarchism has NOT been the badge of identity of a subculture it has always ! addressed matters that were outside of the workplace, and this was not restricted to Spain. This was a fact long before the 8 hour day or the birth of the ideologues who claim there is no more working class (I can remember the same claim being made by the likes of Marcuse in the 1960s). It is a delusional slander to say that this wasn't an obvious fact.

I will use the example of community gardens because I am quite familiar with both the technical and social context of same.

1)Ordinary people have done such things for decades WITHOUT the input of subcultural anarchists.

2)They do it BETTER technically AND socially than such "anarchists" do.

3)They outnumber the subculturists by at least a thousand to one and probably much more.

4)Such things are, of course, important whether they are "revolutionary" or not.

Personally I am NOT a 'revolutionist". They deserve attention BUT the attention of subculturists is often more destructive than beneficial. If, for instance, I was trying to set up a community garden I would try my damndest to get rid of the scrubby looking ideologue who wants to rant to the people about being "middle class" and how "civilization should be abolished".

Eventually all anarchists are going to have to make a choice. Set aside the liberal bullshit you were taught in school that every opinion is equally correct which has received dogmatic assertion amongst young anarchists that they should genuflect to "diversity of tactics". Either you go with your idea that there is a "non-confrontational" way to anarchism. I call it gradualist anarchism. Others have called it by different names. OR...you can go with the idea that anarcho- arsonists who endanger the lives of anybody living nearby should be glorified. I say this as a resident of a city where gang delivered bullets more often than not hit innocent victims rather than the intended target.

If you are like Bob Black and are willing to side with such people when they "justify" themselves by saying such things as, "I really didn't mean to burn the little bitch" then we have little to talk about. If, however, you are a bit above this PLEASE consider the implications of the tactics you advocate. Anarchism is not an ideology for violent psychopaths, no matter what the likes of Bob Black would have you believe.

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Defasher wrote

Your proof only exists in your mind. You've shown nothing but your opinion.

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Murray wrote

I think I've demonstrated beyond a doubt that you identitarians are impossuble to reason with as you reject the very ideals of reason and engaging others in a civilized manner.