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celebratedrecluse wrote

so let's talk about why this brings out the worst in the whites?

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celebratedrecluse wrote

or perhaps, it's too soon. maybe next year, we will talk about race, it'll be a better time right?

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Goonpilled wrote (edited )

Are you living in 2020? Even if you were living in 2016, or 2014, you'd know it doesn't take a year for these things to come out... 2 weeks tops would be an incredibly long run of hiding it, especially for people who do nothing but talk politics. But beyond pretending they're going to be exposed as secret reactionaries this time, unlike every other time, let's talk about where the left and black activists should be finding common ground, which is in the dismantling of white supremacy.

As far as I can see, at the moment, the two most pressing issues, and the ones where mass action can have the most effect, are in law enforcement and in ending voter disenfranchisement.

In law enforcement both in the neutering of policing in it's current form, by whatever method, and (ideally) a complete end to the goal of criminal prosecution being punishment and retribution (at least when directed at those not currently above the law, I think on some level the kind of people who routinely avoid justice (i.e. the ruling class, and those who are privileged politically i.e. whites threatening or committing racial violence, implicitly or explicitly) need to be seen to suffer consequences in order for there to be any faith in whatever form of government enacts its ability and willingness to deliver justice.)

In voter disenfranchisement, the whole process of operating polls is currently so nakedly corrupt there's a million things that could be done on every level. Obviously it doesn't end with voting, electoralism is no panacea, even if the process were representative but it also seems like it's real integral to the maintenance of white supremacy that black people and the urban poor be denied the vote whenever and wherever possible.

Of course their are other issues, a lot of them economic to do with ability to get credit, and the cost of living when you are poor, the toll it takes on mental health, the drain on your time to do things that are convenient to the rich, but I'm too ignorant of the minutia of finance to talk about the first one in any constructive way, and the shape of the latter two are very local which makes it hard to describe what specifically should be done from a universal perspective.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Are you living in 2020? Even if you were living in 2016, or 2014, you'd know it doesn't take a year for these things to come out... 2 weeks tops would be an incredibly long run of hiding it, especially for people who do nothing but talk politics. But beyond pretending they're going to be exposed as secret reactionaries this time, unlike every other time, let's talk about where the left and black activists should be finding common ground, which is in the dismantling of white supremacy.

This isn't about exposing Will & Amber as "secret reactionaries". That isn't a thing, unless we are talking about a small number of actual fascists. This isn't what I'm personally saying about the chapos, I do not think they are consciously engaging in a project of fascist entryism (although others here disagree clearly, and I can understand your confusion of my point of view with theirs).

White supremacy is subtle, even subconscious, and has to be unpacked in peoples' psychologies. It is immanent clearly in what they were talking about in this ep. Moreover, all the chapos openly deride any effort to unpack of self-critique their perspective (not only about race, but really anything, i can't think of a single time they admitted wrong or grew from mistakes?), making money in the process. There is a market for insulating white people from any critique, including insulating white leftists, and this market process results in profit as well as the reproduction of oppressive perspectives and thus actions. Thus this is a discussion of material conditions, not merely "superstructure", because there is an economic undergirding to this just like with any issue relating to white supremacy.

brass tacks: The chapos are talking about cancel culture bullshit like boomers, and you are simply deflecting from their absurd and frankly revolting perspective with unrelated statements against broad impersonal systems and conditions rather than having a conversation about the role of race in culture, let alone about why these cultural commentators are pivoting towards reactionary ideology in their cultural commentary podcast. The discussion was very precisely about why these specific white people act in this specific way, and yet you have insulted my ability to know what year it is (lol) and pretended we were never discussing that...which we were, or at least the rest of us were.

I can only interpret this as a form of fear, a coping mechanism for a difficult subject, but perhaps you have miscommunicated.

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Goonpilled wrote (edited )

Perhaps I have miscommunicated, or we are talking past each other, because I haven't listened to the episode yet.

Separating my "insulting your ability to know what year it is" from people trying to pin the podcast as having some kind of deleterious effect on the left by a paragraph and a half makes me think it's not just me.

If history is any guide, they won't apologise for this podcast, they won't throw their guest to the wolves, if he's bad overall they'll silently distance themselves. These are the tactics they use because in American political culture, and American comedy culture, if you apologise that cripples you, if you ignore it you can keep going. It seems like an effective tactic, though obviously amoral.

Are desires for them to self critique (publicly) all that different from demands for apology in terms of outcome? Two ways to reach the same conclusion. Having some kind of public meltdown about subtle internal racism people claim to see in you isn't something anyone respects, it makes you Macklemore. You can't have some kind of come to jesus discursive revelation where you declare yourself cured of racism and it sticks with anyone. If you somehow overcome subconscious white supremacy, to whatever extent, it will show in your actions. Declaring a revelation and instant transformation won't satisfy the people who want to find fault, and no one else will respect it either. Which is why time is a necessary factor.

Success in changing the superstructure though difficult (to understate things) when achieved has outcomes that can be seen instantly, in the form of changing of laws or funding. Expecting individuals to come through some alchemical process of moral purification, though it seems easier on the surface, results are impossible to ascertain, so it all becomes magical declarations that satisfy no one.

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