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hogposting wrote

“Infrastructure” can be decentralized, like some people choosing to make a farm for everyone

You're right, but this is pretty far from OP's message. Destruction without a plan for improvement just fucks over ordinary people and benefits the capitalist class (who have the money and experience to buy stuff up on the cheap and rebuild when and how they want). It's doing the first step of disaster capitalism for them.

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Ganggang wrote (edited )

Well in this image it’s banks, McDonald’s and police cars getting burned. I don’t think the image is claiming all destruction is good, just the destruction of that which oppresses us - for instance bourgeoise property (represented by McDonald’s) and capital (likewise by banks).

Even without a plan, I think burning a cop car is inherently beneficial to us because now there’s one less cop car to fit us in. Taking the money from a bank and burning the bank is helpful because it makes the oppressive force of capital scared and it restores our dignity.

It doesn’t benefit the capitalist class to burn a bank even if you have no plan afterwards. There’s a reason that’s illegal. The only plan is to remove the boot so we can do as we like not to structure a revolution for the masses.

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hogposting wrote

I don’t think the image is claiming all destruction is good

The image by itself isn't bad; my point is more about the title, which has a pretty different tone.

It doesn’t benefit the capitalist class to burn a bank even if you have no plan afterwards. There’s a reason that’s illegal.

Terrorist attacks are illegal, too -- would you say the capitalist class saw a net loss or a net gain from 9/11?

The premise here is that capitalists are pretty good at turning a crisis into an opportunity. If something bad is burnt down -- and nothing better takes its place -- capitalists can push reactionary sentiments that appeal to law and order, and ordinary people will buy it because they don't see any material improvement as a result of the fire. They have the money to rebuild, and will, and will often rebuild in a way that's more favorable to them.

We should have a significant focus on what to do after something gets burnt down, because (a) capitalists sure do and (b) while burning down a police station is good, it's far from enough and can even make things more difficult in the short term.

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107a wrote

You can clearly see the improvement on the right side of the image. Squatted buildings, gardens, community.

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ziq OP wrote

You think this lib is gonna get their hands dirty growing carrots when they can just buy a bigmac?

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hogposting wrote

I mean, did you read the title? If it read something like "you have to destroy to create" or "you can't build a good society from within a bad one," sure, that makes sense. But if the focus is just on destruction (as it is in the title) that doesn't get you very far and can actually be counterproductive.

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hogposting wrote (edited )

  1. Lol you didn't even quote him right; "also a creative urge" is a far cry from "peak creativity"
  2. Cool, you have a nice quote, now tell me how that in any way responds to "destruction without a plan for improvement just fucks over ordinary people and benefits the capitalist class"
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ziq OP wrote (edited )

yes let us improve macdonalds, cops and banks to make them more efficient enterprises

very radical

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ziq OP wrote

oh no those poor ordinary mcdonalds banks and swat vans

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hogposting wrote

You can be an edgy teenage anarchist, or you can provide a real justification for anarchism when a serious critique is leveled at it.

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ziq OP wrote

what critique was that? you white knighting for mcdonalds isn't a critique of anarchy.

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hogposting wrote

Fuck off with this bad-faith horseshit. You know what the critique is; you responded to it. If you don't have a plan for what to do after you burn down a McDonalds your brand of "anarchism" is just edgy teenager shit that invites reaction and might as well be an op.

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ziq OP wrote

I responded to you defending cops, corporations and banks with mockery, as anyone in a radical space would.

The image is pretty clear what the mcdonalds is replaced with. She's holding fresh veggies grown across the street with mutual aid. Anarchy is the plan you shitlib.

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hogposting wrote

I responded to you defending cops, corporations and banks with mockery

Lol I didn't do anything close to that.

The image is pretty clear

And it's clearly undercut by the title.

She's holding fresh veggies grown across the street with mutual aid. Anarchy is the plan

You're describing an end state, not a plan. Burning a cop car doesn't create shit -- in enables creation, it removes impediments to creation, but it's edgy teenager nonsense to call it "peak creativity." No garden has magically sprung into existence in the police precinct burnt down in Minneapolis, for example.

You want to get to the right side of the image? I'm right there with you. But burning shit down is the first of many steps, not a plan unto itself.

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ziq OP wrote

Lol I didn't do anything close to that.

Oh no? Sure seems like you're salty af over a drawing of mcdonalds, a bank and a cop car burning and being replaced with squats and community gardens.

You're describing an end state, not a plan

Growing food isn't a plan because it's an "end state", so like a plan to achieve a goal...? Oh, wait...

No garden has magically sprung into existence in the police precinct burnt down in Minneapolis, for example.

Wait, so we can't get rid of cop shops unless they're immediately replaced with gardens?

Oh.

So it's okay to stand by and watch as cops continue murdering black people because if we stop them by demolishing their buildings of operation, but not immediately turn the scorched lot into a garden.... Western civilization collapses, or something, I guess?

Maybe you should think this through a little more because it seems to me you're just another bootlicker who doesn't like seeing cop shops get burnt.

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Bezotcovschina wrote (edited )

Free meme idea (I'm generous, but lazy right now):

"Noooo! You can't burn police stations without assembling a Vanguard Party first! You are just fucking over ordinary people! You are being reactionarino! Noooo!"

"haha, cop shop goes bzhrshhhrshhh"

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hogposting wrote

You are being reactionary!

Burning down a police station is good, not reactionary. But if you don't fill that space with something better, it ultimately invites reaction.

Ordinary people can pretty easily come around to the idea that society as it exists is fucked -- burning down that police station had something like 80% approval. If that's your primary focus, though, and you don't produce a better version of society, those ordinary people will turn to someone who says they can at least "restore order." Starting the process of major change is hard enough, but continuing that process to the end goal of actually realizing that change is still harder and thus deserves significant attention.

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Bezotcovschina wrote

I've edited my message to be more authentic, so I demand you to change your quote, so no one would think I'm not so sharp-witted as I want to appear! Then we'll talk. Or, at least, will try.

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hogposting wrote

Sure seems like you're salty af over a drawing of mcdonalds

Sure seems like all you want to do is start knife fights with the people who are closest to agreeing with you -- good luck with that.

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