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hogposting wrote

Reply to comment by celebratedrecluse in Real socialism! by ziq

do you believe the uighurs are going through a genocide and colonization process

Let's start the conversation with these two facts:

  1. The U.S. State Department -- one of the most anti-China institutions on the planet -- estimates that a maximum of 3 million Uyghurs have been imprisoned.
  2. As a direct result of the U.S. invasion of Iraq -- which was sold to the public on lies about WMDs -- resulted in around 2.4 million Iraqi deaths.

It would make a mockery of the term "genocide" to apply that term to 3 million people in prison but not seriously consider applying that term to 2.4 million people in the ground.

Now I would bet anything that you aren't going to start defending the Iraq War anytime soon, and you may even be willing to call it a genocide, too. I'm sure we agree almost entirely on how terrible the Iraq War is. The point is that if you search through U.S. media it's very easy to find instances where one of these events is labeled a genocide, and it's very difficult to find instances where the other is labeled a genocide. That alone should make anyone incredibly skeptical of how whatever is happening in Xinjiang is being reported. This skepticism should only be increased by the fact that one of the "academic" sources underpinning much of the news about China is a far-right Christian fundamentalist who thinks god sent him to oppose communism in China, and by the fact that Western academics exaggerated and mischaracterized the Soviet penal system.

With that heavy lens of skepticism in place, consider these additional facts:

  1. By far the loudest voice that's taken up the "China is genociding Muslim Uyghurs" narrative is the U.S. Republican Party, which is openly anti-Islamic.
  2. Diplomats from 12 largely-Muslim countries -- who presumably aren't anti-Islamic -- visited Xinjiang in 2019, and to the degree their governments are criticizing China's actions at all, I'm not aware of any of those governments labeling the situation "genocide."
  3. China has about 166 mosques per 100,000 Muslims; for comparison, the U.S. has about 61 mosques per 100,000 Muslims.

If there's actually a genocide happening, I find it hard to believe the anti-Islamic GOP is the group that's most concerned about Muslims in China. If there's actually a genocide happening, I find it hard to believe that countries with large Muslim populations aren't equally concerned, or even more concerned. If there's actually a genocide happening, I find it hard to believe that China still has almost three times as many mosques-per-worshipper as the U.S., which (despite its many faults) is pretty open about allowing mosques to be built.

There's plenty to criticize China over -- shit, non-genocidal mass incarceration is worthy of criticism -- but a lot here seems like propaganda, especially in context of the larger "gobunism killed 48,090,111 bazillion people!1!1!!!" propaganda narrative.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

So your analysis is that there is no genocide of uyghur people under the CCP's state?

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hogposting wrote

You're really going to respond to a detailed opinion supported by numerous sources with that? What are you trying to accomplish here?

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[deleted] wrote

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hogposting wrote

Picking stats and putting them together isn't making an informed opinion.

I don't know what type of lazy bullshit you're accustomed to, but reading up on a situation, typing out your opinion, and supporting that opinion with the information you found is the definition of an informed opinion.

Showing reporters speak to Muslims in china and hearing a consensus that they were not under attack from the government would be sufficient.

As I pointed out in my comment, diplomats from a dozen largely-Muslim countries visited Xinjiang in 2019 and they (and their governments) aren't calling the situation genocide.

Is it really so hard to believe that the State Department might be lying about a foreign government?

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celebratedrecluse wrote

The entire post was an argument to make the point i reiterated, i was confirming that i understood it because the author was not blunt about their perspective.

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