Submitted by [deleted]
on December 12, 2020 at 12:55 AM in axolotl
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Ehhhh I don't really think shooting anyone just to steal something is justifiable even under an illegalist framework. Dude should have dropped the shit and got out of dodge instead of pulling a gun out for what is now a set of items that are worth way less than the effort and consequences of taking them and goes against the principle of hurting the haves and not the have nots as Walmart is far less hurt by the death of a LP than the family of said LP. I just think you should only use violence to meet force with equal force.
Of course, the LP should have just let dude go. In fact, I thought it was protocol for LPs to not engage violently with lifters because of cases like this one. I guess Walmart didn't get the memo.
I know they've shot people before but I was under the impression that they did so with certain principles in mind. And while cops are among the have nots, I assumed they didn't mess with them unless certain circumstances were met. For example, I assumed bank robberies done by illegalists tried to use very little amounts of violence against people so you wouldn't have, say, the murdering of bank employees.
Also I don't put cops and LPs on the same level. LPs work under worse conditions than cops since they are basically just regular employees with certain privileges given so shooting one doesn't have the same ability to be justified that shooting a cop would.
But then illegalists can't be considered anarchists if the simple principle of respecting people's individuality and autonomy can't be maintained in their practice. While I highly agree with the removal of the notion of the working class being agents of "The Revolution", you can't have anarchism and willful murder in the same headspace and most definitely can't have individualism and "obedient masses" in your view of people simultaneously. Hell, equating people who are just living under capitalism to those who are actively trying to maintain it is completely against even the most basic of individualist approach to people who aren't you.
Like, for real, you just gave off some bad red flags: Dehumanization, othering, death penalties for casual existing... Either you're framing this very very terribly or illegalist praxis and thought has the same roots and problems as fascism. I'm going to assume the former because otherwise illegalism doesn't have any legitimacy as a branch of individualist thought if "oh you don't actively fight against capitalism then you deserve death" is an actual belief held by the majority of illegalists.
You assume wrongly that this is about morals. It isn't. It's about the consequences of what we think and do. The logic, actions, and consequences of murder and violence are inherently antithetical to individualist anarchists because they are violations of autonomy, create harmful relations between people, are inherently hierarchical, and worsen conditions for everyone. The precedent that murder sets only ends up adding to and legitimizing the harm that legal systems of any society do to people. This is can be seen by the fact that after the Bonnot gang caught, killed, and the surviving members executed, an anti-anarchist campaign was created. Police saw their funds increase and anarchists were met with a new wave of resistance as they became further affiliated with criminals. The Bonnots violence made them enemies of themselves and everyone around them.
Putting this in personal perspective, to think like them would mean to dehumanize me and find murdering me permissible. That line of thinking is a threat to me and in order to secure my safety, I would have to take action to limit one's ability to hurt me. This means I can't find solidarity with you. If you and I agree in the abolition of law for the mere sake that law brings with it rule that we find no reason to abide by yet you feel my death desirable, you and the law become the same to me: an enemy. Yet to relate to you in such a way is ridiculous! Why have enemies? Why be enemies? Why must death, murder, violence, even be on the table? If you so wish to see your will through then those things only make you an enemy to yourself, a slave to your own self-preservation as you try to avoid the repercussions of your actions. I find such an existence abhorrent as I already find my current state of affairs so. But is that the long con of the illegalist? To commit crime after crime until the State ultimately catches up to you? To end the way of the Bonnots? I don't think so. The Bonnots were a tragedy, as it seems, and one we find no truth of illegalism within other than that to murder is begging for one's own death. I find it saddening to think that "Damn the master, damn the slave, and damn me!" were ever anyone's last words before killing themselves off so that the cops wouldn't get to them.
As far as I see it, illegalism, much like pacifism, and individualism, is a natural evolution of anarchism if you allow yourself to continue down its natural course. You can't have anarchism with laws. In this regard, I would gladly have a great number of conversations about illegalist thought and practice BUT that conversation does not precede the one that must be had about the possibility that someone is a threat to me because of the circumstances I exist in and have to live with and if one is a threat to me then ultimately they are a threat to others and I can't find myself tolerating that because, as stated before, that shit backfires on everyone which circles back to me. How quickly that conversation ends so we can get to the good stuff depends on how quickly we can agree that killing maids, workers, and clerks for being maids, workers, and clerks, at the very least, doesn't amount to anything positive for anyone in the long run and should probably be avoided.
In the spirit of sparking a more interesting conversation, I have an infatuation with gentleman thieves, pirates, hackers, and guerrilla activism as I find how illegalism manifests in each of their practices rather fascinating. My favorite little tidbit of illegalist practice is guerilla gardening because "Fuck your property and your law, I'm planting flowers!" Is just really wholesome. I also think the idea of illegalism being a means of tearing down structures and social relations such that people can build those relationships on their own terms is worthy of way more discussion than it seems to garner.
Indeed. In this case, the killing of loss prevention officers could discourage the kind of brutality regularly visited on lifters and those incorrectly suspected to be lifting. There is clearly a justification for killing loss prevention if it can be concretely tied to the reduction of violence committed by LP, it's just not one of individual self-defense but rather collective safety.
I mean I don’t like LPs but that’s just fucked up. Glad the cops caught the guy, people can’t just go around shooting others who are just trying to make a living.
Yeah real anarchists love random walmart workers getting shot over nothing
I can’t believe anarchists would ever bend over backwards to defend senseless murder, but hey why not it is 2020 after all. Ridiculous
Being opposed to random assholes murdering innocent dudes means supporting cops and defending private property? Ok, guess I understand why anarchists murdered those kids in “chaz”
It doesn’t bother me at all actually. I don’t change my opinions based on who I sound like. I’m not a radlib obsessed with aesthetics and edgy virtue signaling.
Even if the whole damn store was in the bag it wouldn’t justify senselessly killing an innocent person