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Pash wrote

What's your preferred answer?

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Pash wrote

Quit the community? that's the exact same as the other guy's answer that you were mad about you absolute berk

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ziq OP wrote

What are you on about?

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Pash wrote (edited )

You made this post to shame someone for saying that people who don't want to participate in mutual aid groups should leave them. I ask "What's your preferred answer?" and you say that people who don't want to participate in mutual aid groups should leave them. Smh my head.

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ziq OP wrote

I did? Quote me please

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Pash wrote

you never had my membership, I live alone in the mountains now and i'd live alone in the mountains whoever has declared themselves the rulers of the world

you can't exile people who exile themselves

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

are you concern trolling or what?

how is me choosing where i want to live my life the same as that reddit ancom saying they want to ostracize people from their society who aren't productive / 'cooperative' enough?

do you not see the difference between a voluntary choice and a forced action? between me living self sufficiently in the woods and a society punishing people who won't do forced labor (with exile)?

how many city people do you think are going to have the ability to survive when they're cast out into the wilderness with no skills or resources?

how on earth are you conflating my voluntary choice to live off the land with a collective authority using violence to force people to labor for them?

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Pash wrote

do you not see the difference between a voluntary choice and a forced action?

Feeding and housing a person, making them a member of a community, is a voluntary action. Why (and how?) should we be forced to work to house you no matter what, and not have the option to withdraw our care from you as we please?

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ziq OP wrote

Can't wait to see how you treat disabled people in your work or die civilization aka a 1:1 replica of the current world order.

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Pash wrote (edited )

You seem to have me confused with Amitabha; I don't conjure up worlds.

I don't agree with your assertion that the current world order rewards labour above all; it rewards ownership of capital.

You can look into historical examples of how disabled people have been treated in mutual aid societies and indigenous anarchist societies around the world.

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Pash wrote

But then how does coordinated action get did? Say building and operating a railway.

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ziq OP wrote

first you pull up the rails, then you make swords and axes out of the steel and use them to storm and loot the cargo in the derailed trains

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zoom_zip wrote

i’m no expert on this but i like the way open source software works. people who like the idea of something and see a benefit in it can contribute to it. that’s the way i thought an ancom society would function. this idea of people having to do what the majority vote is not very anarchist.

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existential1 wrote

I would also add that we probably don't need railways anyway. They tend to destroy natural environments and serve as the basis for future civil infrastructure that also destroys the environment. It also delivers products from A to B that then make possible people desiring things they would have otherwise never had a taste for that requires exploitation to be manufactured at the pace equal to the demand +1.

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metocin wrote (edited )

I think it's really easy to see massive train networks as the radical solution to our current reliance on personal transportation. Obviously the much more radical, simple, and ecologically friendly solution would be to give up the privilege of fast transportation over land. There is simply no ethical or sustainable way to implement it, and further, I think that in a radically decentralized society an inability for people to travel long distances could actually be beneficial.

If we live in a truly ethical and sustainable way, why would we even need long range travel? Being able to escape your locality and the people within it is simply serves to alienate people from building radical relations with their neighbours. What if instead of constantly dreaming about escaping work, we didn't have work to escape from, and we loved our communities so much we didn't ever feel the need to leave?

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existential1 wrote

I think one of the central questions of anarchism that can be used to examine most things is, "What is keeping me from not doing anything?" Using that question as a frame, it quite easily leads to your last sentence. Most industrial forms of travel are used for commerce more than individuals, per se. And because of that, people's lives are shaped by the possibility of travel more than needing to travel. The more relationships you build in your area, with humans, plants, etc, the less you'll find you need to go anywhere else. But our current world has as a tenet the idea that not only can you be anywhere, you should go everywhere you can afford to.

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Pash wrote

Work needs to be coordinated systematically to reach beyond the smallest scale. The features of that system are an interesting discussion but saying 'no systems!' means no production.

Also, note that nobody yet has mentioned anything like voting or majoritarianism.

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ziq OP wrote

no production

Perish the thought.

I know you ancoms love work / production, but has it ever occurred to you that if you ever get your incredible stateless industrial society and people like me start raiding your trains, farms and factories, you'll need a state to stop me?

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Pash wrote

Why would a state be needed to stop you?

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ziq OP wrote

How are you going to stop me without laws, prisons and police?

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Pash wrote

Shouldn't be hard.

What are you armed with? How many of you are there? What are your vehicles? What's your training?

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ziq OP wrote

swords and axes

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horses

guerilla warfare

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zoom_zip wrote

and top hats

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ziq OP wrote

wouldn't the ancoms be the ones wearing top hats since they control the means of production and we're liberating it?

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Pash wrote

You'd be shot from trucks.

That was even easier than I thought. You didn't even make anyone late for lunch.

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CaptainACAB wrote

Shooting people for property, huh?

What's the main function of a police force again?

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Pash wrote

Have you read Kropotkin?

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CaptainACAB wrote

Do me the courtesy of answering my question and I'll reciprocate.

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Pash wrote

Main function of cops is to enforce the legal system

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CaptainACAB wrote

Correct. And the legal system defends property laws and gives state actors justification for shooting people for violating property laws.

So what's the difference between killing people for property and killing people for property?

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Pash wrote

So what's the difference between killing people for property and killing people for property?

systematic hierarchy

also I didn't say anything about "for property"; we wuz talking about marauders with axes and swords burning people in their beds

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[deleted] wrote

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bloodrose wrote

Lol, I hadn't gotten that far in the thread. Deleted my original comment once I hit it.

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ziq OP wrote

idk what you said but all i'm doing here with the raiding bandit fantasy is demonstrating that an ancom city will morph into a state just as soon as a perceived threat presents itself

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bloodrose wrote (edited )

Sorry, I just said he was wrong to say you said burning people in their beds then i got further down, lol.

And yes, I get your point. It's a good one. :)

I feel like I am learning a lot from the discourse today.

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Pash wrote (edited )

Except you failed to present any sort of reason we should believe that.

You: Nobody could possibly ever defend against a thief without a state!

Me: No, people defend themselves all the time, what the heck are you talking about?

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ziq OP wrote

just the idea that you see property 'theft' as a crime demonstrates you've already built a state

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CaptainACAB wrote

And, yeah, I've read some Kropotkin.

I've read other Anarcho-Communists, too.

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Pash wrote

so you know that forceful defense isn't particularly statist

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CaptainACAB wrote (edited )

Sure, until a community gets attacked and then we all start enforcing borders and shit because the fear of danger makes large groups of people form states.

All this because some people think a state won't be born under a sedentary community.

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Pash wrote

All this because some people think a state won't be born under a sedentary community.

Are you saying that sedentism leads to statism, and that's bad, so we should be nomads?

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq OP wrote

sorry, the ancom city council needs those lands for their cows

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[deleted] wrote

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existential1 wrote

Can you make an ancom city in SimCity then burn it down in Streets of Sim City?

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CaptainACAB wrote

Nope. Very small bands of people can easily be sedentary without descending into Statism. Wouldn't lead to much environmental damage or pollution either.

Larger groups will inevitably deteriorate into authoritarian structures, typically as a response to outsiders, such as the hypothetical you and ziq are going on about; and soon you've got people designating "this" area as "theirs" and begin enforcing borders.

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ziq OP wrote

when someone smugly proclaims they're gonna 'rescind your membership' in their society before they've even constructed the society because you don't fall in line with their ideological posturing, their ideology was an authoritarian structure all along and never needed to deteriorate into it

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CaptainACAB wrote

when someone smugly proclaims they're gonna 'rescind your membership' in their society before they've even constructed the society because you don't fall in line with their ideological posturing, their ideology was an authoritarian structure all along and never needed to deteriorate into it

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Pash wrote

When you claim you're gonna violently destroy other people's voluntarist work groups because you don't like them organising without you, you're the tyrant.

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ziq OP wrote

if i destroy them it's because i understand the nature of authority and that letting the city continue to expand will eventually be a death sentence to me and anyone else that doesn't want to be consumed by their society

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Pash wrote

before they've even constructed the society

You're thousands of years too late with that comment, lol

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ziq OP wrote

you're right, ancom society is pretty much identical to every other industrial society that exists and has existed

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Pash wrote

Do you think anprim societies practiced ostracism?

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

are you under the impression i'm an anprim? i'm not.

I'll answer your question anyway since you don't seem to get how the power relations of civilization work: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/john-moore-a-primitivist-primer

Some basic power relations are present in primitive societies — and this is one reason why anarcho-primitivists do not seek to replicate these societies — but it is in civilization that power relations become pervasive and entrenched in practically all aspects of human life and human relations with the biosphere. Civilization — also referred to as the megamachine or Leviathan — becomes a huge machine which gains its own momentum and becomes beyond the control of even its supposed rulers. Powered by the routines of daily life which are defined and managed by internalized patterns of obedience, people become slaves to the machine, the system of civilization itself. Only widespread refusal of this system and its various forms of control, revolt against power itself, can abolish civilization, and pose a radical alternative. Ideologies such as Marxism, classical anarchism and feminism oppose aspects of civilization; only anarcho-primitivism opposes civilization, the context within which the various forms of oppression proliferate and become pervasive — and, indeed, possible.

tldl excluding someone from an all-encompassing global industrial society that's impossible to escape and everyone is forced to depend on for sustenance is not the same as telling someone to leave a nomadic tribe in an unspoiled, abundant ecosystem where food is free for the picking

anprims aren't creating vast deserts and then casting people out into them to starve, only civilization can do that

and in the anarchistic hunter gatherer cultures that still exist in the world today, people don't get exiled. rather, when someone is being oppressive and trying to rule people, everyone packs up their things at night and relocates to another settlement without them

eventually they get the hint and stop trying to rule people: https://iaf-fai.org/2020/11/02/indigenous-anarchic-hierarchy/

One culture we can look to too for an almost complete absence of hierarchy is the Hadza people of West Africa. The Hadza have a simple solution to those who feel they have the right to control others. They pack up camp and leave them behind. They do this until the person stops attempting to control them.

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zoom_zip wrote

this time it took 1 hour for the “have you read old dead white guy with a beard?” argument to show up

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Pash wrote

dude "white" lmao

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zoom_zip wrote

sorry dude. if you haven’t read the tiger who came to tea you just wouldn’t understand. maybe brush up on your book knowledge idk.

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Pash wrote

no joke, I read the tiger who came to tea less than a week ago with my neighbour's kid

sorry if you thought I was being argumentative when I asked what they'd read

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ziq OP wrote

see, we raid your city at night when you're all wrapped snugly under your red/black comforters... we set fire to your trucks and apartment blocks before you even know we've taken all your grain

and while you're putting out the fires, we're making off with the contents of your ancom libraries (good firestarters)

then we blow up your dams and wash the whole fucking city away just to show you what we think of your police and their truck-mounted machine guns

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Pash wrote

All because you're mad that a society you insisted on refusing membership in revoked your membership.

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ziq OP wrote

you never had my membership, I live alone in the mountains now and i'd live alone in the mountains whoever has declared themselves the rulers of the world

you can't exile people who exile themselves

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Pash wrote

Neat. Luv ya.

Let us know if you want anything.

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ziq OP wrote

i'll be sure to stop by your graves and take the loaves of bread your loved ones leave for you

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Pash wrote

This is the crux of your argument and there's zero substance to it.

"How could anyone ever stop a thief by themselves?! Mathematical impossibility!"

I've seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count. Your point is so bad.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

as soon as your city gets ransacked the first time, you're building a police force, courts, prisons, guards, parole officers and you'll have reproduced the state 1:1.

even before all that, you'll have formed a standing military to defend the city's borders from 'reactionaries'.

you can keep lying to yourself and pretend every pillaging bandit will get stopped by random bystanders who just happen to be loitering at the scene of the crime in the dead of night, or you can own it and be a proud liberal instead of a dishonest ancom.

it only takes one successful raid to wipe out the food reserves or poison the water supply or burn down the factories, but yeah you're going to risk it all in the hopes that a good Samaritan is in the right place at the right time with the right skills to stop marauders from taking everything your workers have sacrificed their time and energy for

cities require authority to function, anyone who doesn't see that is deluding themselves

and you're barely even cognizant of what anarcho-communism claims (lies) to be since you're openly calling for laws, police, a monopoly on violence, property rights and borders.

but i do appreciate an ancom who takes their ideology to its natural conclusions in the planning stage instead of handwaving away all the inevitable implications until they're directly confronted with them in life

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Pash wrote (edited )

As soon as your band of brigands gets pwned in the first raid, you're building weapons and vehicles to organized a more successful second raid. Now what you don't know is that Ki'dal is actually a double agent spying for me, and the weapons he got from the ancom contact he hyped up are defective. Our operative has planted a miniaturized listening device inside your dreadlocks.

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Pash wrote (edited )

and you're barely even cognizant of what anarcho-communism claims (lies) to be since you're openly calling for laws, police, a monopoly on violence, property rights and borders.

I didn't call for police, nor did I mention "anarcho-communism", whatever that is.

it only takes one successful raid to wipe out the food reserves or poison the water supply or burn down the factories, but yeah you're going to risk it all in the hopes that a good Samaritan is in the right place at the right time with the right skills to stop marauders from taking everything your workers have sacrificed their time and energy for

Interesting threat assessment. Wat do?

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

I recommend you do a good-faith read of this pinned post in f/Tech.

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Pash wrote

I don't see division of labor specifically as an evil to be avoided.

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ziq OP wrote

you upholding and proliferating work / industry and all the related systems of alienation makes you a tyrant to anyone who actually cares about doing anarchy

guess what anarchists do to tyrants who want to control the world?

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Pash wrote

People self-organising into work teams is not tyranny.

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ziq OP wrote

it is to anyone who doesn't want to work and doesn't want to be oppressed and alienated by your collective power

you normalizing an industrial work system goes against every free person's interests

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zoom_zip wrote

i also didn’t say that it couldn’t be coordinated. i just suggested a way collective action could work on a relatively large scale without someone or a group of people needing to dictate it.

but sorry if i misunderstood what you were saying. what were you suggesting as a system of coordinated action without voting or hierarchy etc.?

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Pash wrote

ziq: refuse to participate in any society and any system that measures people in terms of productivity. Resist all systems that are constructed to rule you.

society: ok, we rescind your membership, cya

ziq: https://files.catbox.moe/hlrqhq.gif

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ziq OP wrote

just in case anyone thinks this is me using an alt to mock ancoms, it's not.

this is the ancom mind in all its tyrannical glory

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Pash wrote

You should be happy to be ostracized, as it's specifically what you requested.

I see a lot of agreement in the thread you linked: both sides agree that someone who doesn't volunteer to participate in a productive society simply shouldn't. What's the conflict there? Everything was cool until you showed up with your Mad Max war band of arsonists.

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ziq OP wrote

i won't be happy until your ancom cities lay in ashes at my feet and a fertile rainforest sprouts in their place

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Pash wrote

Meanie.

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subrosa wrote

bold move, posting this to ancom-land r/antiwork :P

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

What's up with that? Are they just expecting all the other commies to do the work for them while they sit home playing zelda? I don't get why theyd id as communists if they don't like work.

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subrosa wrote

No, you see, we don't oppose work, we just hate exploitation. The problem is capitalists not paying their fair share. We need to vote for progressive politicians, demand M4A and UBI, reduce the standard work-week to 39 hours, and push for full automation. Hopefully we can achieve that in 50 years from now.

That ancom flag? Oh, I'm more of a libertarian socialist. I agree with the anarchist system, but it doesn't seem feasable right now.

Who am I telling this, you obviously share some of my frustrations with reddit commies.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

I need to get on the mod teams of those anarchist subs and just ban anyone with a 'libertarian socialist' or 'libertarian marxist' or 'communalist' flair. I swear they've multiplied tenfold in the past year and there are barely any anarchists left.

I've been getting so downvoted lately trying to push back against the anarcho-dominationists that I get throttled by reddit when I try to post.

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