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Pash wrote

Why would a state be needed to stop you?

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ziq OP wrote

How are you going to stop me without laws, prisons and police?

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Pash wrote

This is the crux of your argument and there's zero substance to it.

"How could anyone ever stop a thief by themselves?! Mathematical impossibility!"

I've seen it with my own eyes more times than I can count. Your point is so bad.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

as soon as your city gets ransacked the first time, you're building a police force, courts, prisons, guards, parole officers and you'll have reproduced the state 1:1.

even before all that, you'll have formed a standing military to defend the city's borders from 'reactionaries'.

you can keep lying to yourself and pretend every pillaging bandit will get stopped by random bystanders who just happen to be loitering at the scene of the crime in the dead of night, or you can own it and be a proud liberal instead of a dishonest ancom.

it only takes one successful raid to wipe out the food reserves or poison the water supply or burn down the factories, but yeah you're going to risk it all in the hopes that a good Samaritan is in the right place at the right time with the right skills to stop marauders from taking everything your workers have sacrificed their time and energy for

cities require authority to function, anyone who doesn't see that is deluding themselves

and you're barely even cognizant of what anarcho-communism claims (lies) to be since you're openly calling for laws, police, a monopoly on violence, property rights and borders.

but i do appreciate an ancom who takes their ideology to its natural conclusions in the planning stage instead of handwaving away all the inevitable implications until they're directly confronted with them in life

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Pash wrote (edited )

As soon as your band of brigands gets pwned in the first raid, you're building weapons and vehicles to organized a more successful second raid. Now what you don't know is that Ki'dal is actually a double agent spying for me, and the weapons he got from the ancom contact he hyped up are defective. Our operative has planted a miniaturized listening device inside your dreadlocks.

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Pash wrote (edited )

and you're barely even cognizant of what anarcho-communism claims (lies) to be since you're openly calling for laws, police, a monopoly on violence, property rights and borders.

I didn't call for police, nor did I mention "anarcho-communism", whatever that is.

it only takes one successful raid to wipe out the food reserves or poison the water supply or burn down the factories, but yeah you're going to risk it all in the hopes that a good Samaritan is in the right place at the right time with the right skills to stop marauders from taking everything your workers have sacrificed their time and energy for

Interesting threat assessment. Wat do?

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Pash wrote

Shouldn't be hard.

What are you armed with? How many of you are there? What are your vehicles? What's your training?

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ziq OP wrote

swords and axes

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horses

guerilla warfare

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Pash wrote

You'd be shot from trucks.

That was even easier than I thought. You didn't even make anyone late for lunch.

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Shooting people for property, huh?

What's the main function of a police force again?

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Pash wrote

Have you read Kropotkin?

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Do me the courtesy of answering my question and I'll reciprocate.

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Pash wrote

Main function of cops is to enforce the legal system

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Correct. And the legal system defends property laws and gives state actors justification for shooting people for violating property laws.

So what's the difference between killing people for property and killing people for property?

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

And, yeah, I've read some Kropotkin.

I've read other Anarcho-Communists, too.

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Pash wrote

so you know that forceful defense isn't particularly statist

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OdiousOutlaw wrote (edited )

Sure, until a community gets attacked and then we all start enforcing borders and shit because the fear of danger makes large groups of people form states.

All this because some people think a state won't be born under a sedentary community.

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Pash wrote

All this because some people think a state won't be born under a sedentary community.

Are you saying that sedentism leads to statism, and that's bad, so we should be nomads?

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Nope. Very small bands of people can easily be sedentary without descending into Statism. Wouldn't lead to much environmental damage or pollution either.

Larger groups will inevitably deteriorate into authoritarian structures, typically as a response to outsiders, such as the hypothetical you and ziq are going on about; and soon you've got people designating "this" area as "theirs" and begin enforcing borders.

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ziq OP wrote

when someone smugly proclaims they're gonna 'rescind your membership' in their society before they've even constructed the society because you don't fall in line with their ideological posturing, their ideology was an authoritarian structure all along and never needed to deteriorate into it

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

when someone smugly proclaims they're gonna 'rescind your membership' in their society before they've even constructed the society because you don't fall in line with their ideological posturing, their ideology was an authoritarian structure all along and never needed to deteriorate into it

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Pash wrote

When you claim you're gonna violently destroy other people's voluntarist work groups because you don't like them organising without you, you're the tyrant.

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ziq OP wrote

if i destroy them it's because i understand the nature of authority and that letting the city continue to expand will eventually be a death sentence to me and anyone else that doesn't want to be consumed by their society

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Pash wrote

before they've even constructed the society

You're thousands of years too late with that comment, lol

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ziq OP wrote

you're right, ancom society is pretty much identical to every other industrial society that exists and has existed

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Pash wrote

Do you think anprim societies practiced ostracism?

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

are you under the impression i'm an anprim? i'm not.

I'll answer your question anyway since you don't seem to get how the power relations of civilization work: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/john-moore-a-primitivist-primer

Some basic power relations are present in primitive societies — and this is one reason why anarcho-primitivists do not seek to replicate these societies — but it is in civilization that power relations become pervasive and entrenched in practically all aspects of human life and human relations with the biosphere. Civilization — also referred to as the megamachine or Leviathan — becomes a huge machine which gains its own momentum and becomes beyond the control of even its supposed rulers. Powered by the routines of daily life which are defined and managed by internalized patterns of obedience, people become slaves to the machine, the system of civilization itself. Only widespread refusal of this system and its various forms of control, revolt against power itself, can abolish civilization, and pose a radical alternative. Ideologies such as Marxism, classical anarchism and feminism oppose aspects of civilization; only anarcho-primitivism opposes civilization, the context within which the various forms of oppression proliferate and become pervasive — and, indeed, possible.

tldl excluding someone from an all-encompassing global industrial society that's impossible to escape and everyone is forced to depend on for sustenance is not the same as telling someone to leave a nomadic tribe in an unspoiled, abundant ecosystem where food is free for the picking

anprims aren't creating vast deserts and then casting people out into them to starve, only civilization can do that

and in the anarchistic hunter gatherer cultures that still exist in the world today, people don't get exiled. rather, when someone is being oppressive and trying to rule people, everyone packs up their things at night and relocates to another settlement without them

eventually they get the hint and stop trying to rule people: https://iaf-fai.org/2020/11/02/indigenous-anarchic-hierarchy/

One culture we can look to too for an almost complete absence of hierarchy is the Hadza people of West Africa. The Hadza have a simple solution to those who feel they have the right to control others. They pack up camp and leave them behind. They do this until the person stops attempting to control them.

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq OP wrote

sorry, the ancom city council needs those lands for their cows

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[deleted] wrote

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existential1 wrote

Can you make an ancom city in SimCity then burn it down in Streets of Sim City?

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Pash wrote

So what's the difference between killing people for property and killing people for property?

systematic hierarchy

also I didn't say anything about "for property"; we wuz talking about marauders with axes and swords burning people in their beds

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[deleted] wrote

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[deleted] wrote

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ziq OP wrote

idk what you said but all i'm doing here with the raiding bandit fantasy is demonstrating that an ancom city will morph into a state just as soon as a perceived threat presents itself

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Pash wrote (edited )

Except you failed to present any sort of reason we should believe that.

You: Nobody could possibly ever defend against a thief without a state!

Me: No, people defend themselves all the time, what the heck are you talking about?

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ziq OP wrote

just the idea that you see property 'theft' as a crime demonstrates you've already built a state

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zoom_zip wrote

this time it took 1 hour for the “have you read old dead white guy with a beard?” argument to show up

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Pash wrote

dude "white" lmao

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zoom_zip wrote

sorry dude. if you haven’t read the tiger who came to tea you just wouldn’t understand. maybe brush up on your book knowledge idk.

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Pash wrote

no joke, I read the tiger who came to tea less than a week ago with my neighbour's kid

sorry if you thought I was being argumentative when I asked what they'd read

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ziq OP wrote

see, we raid your city at night when you're all wrapped snugly under your red/black comforters... we set fire to your trucks and apartment blocks before you even know we've taken all your grain

and while you're putting out the fires, we're making off with the contents of your ancom libraries (good firestarters)

then we blow up your dams and wash the whole fucking city away just to show you what we think of your police and their truck-mounted machine guns

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Pash wrote

All because you're mad that a society you insisted on refusing membership in revoked your membership.

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ziq OP wrote

you never had my membership, I live alone in the mountains now and i'd live alone in the mountains whoever has declared themselves the rulers of the world

you can't exile people who exile themselves

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Pash wrote

Neat. Luv ya.

Let us know if you want anything.

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ziq OP wrote

i'll be sure to stop by your graves and take the loaves of bread your loved ones leave for you

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