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Zerush wrote

Capitalism in principle is only a system for a FAIR exchange of goods and services, for this reason I prefer to differentiate between capitalism and neo-liberalism, which is capitalism plus the greed and unscrupulousness of a few that has turned this system into a pyramidal scam for personal benefits. The underlying problem began when the sovereignty of the people was transferred to the so-called markets, leaving them to determine the policies to be followed instead of our representatives in parliament, who have become mere spokesmen for these economic powers and their lobbies.

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OdiousOutlaw wrote

Capitalism was the label given to the economic system by anti-capitalists that wanted to give voice to the structure that they saw as oppressive, where are you getting these "principles" from?

Seriously, what we call Capitalism was never a planned system, it just became what it is due to a vast variety of decisions and stimuli created across generations of people and interconnected societies; how does a set of general principles arise from such an amalgamation of reactions?

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ziq OP wrote

there's nothing fair about someone owning capital and someone else not owning capital. capitalism never attempted to be fair.

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Zerush wrote

The problem is not to acquire money as a medium of exchange, but the problem lies in the way to acquire it.

It is a significant difference from obtaining money through your own effort or from obtaining it through the exploitation of the work and effort of others or by speculating with the money of others. The latter the current 'liberal' system in which we find us now, not money, be it more or less, honestly earned by a person with his efforts.

The capitalist system as such does not cause these inequalities, they are caused by the neo-liberal system, which creates these social inequalities, poverty and misery, by the plundering that people experience by a small elite that monopolizes the vast majority of wealth from a country.

This evidently has nothing to do with a FAIR exchange of goods and services, which is the original idea of ​​capitalism, just like a pyramid scam has nothing to do with a fair deal.

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ziq OP wrote

Neoliberalism didn't invent misery and inequality, it just made it affect the middle class.

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Zerush wrote

Neo-liberalism CAUSE misery, ecause it create inequality. Because neo-liberalism is not based on equitable and fair distribution, but on the selfish desires of a few at the expense of others. If the economic differences in a population are based solely on individual effort and qualification, some will earn more and others less, but all have to live, this does not create this aberrant social inequality caused by the neo-liberal system, where one earns a indecent amount of money, while his employees are on garbage contracts and salaries that do not correspond at all to their work and effort and that leaves only to choose between paying the bills or the food. This is currently the system where we are. That 10% of the world's population lives at the cost of the effort and misery of the remaining 90%. This is what is called neo-liberalism, a feudalism anti-democratic perversion of the principle of capitalism.

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ziq OP wrote

show me a capitalist society in the past or present where 'equitable and fair distribution' exists, please. show me a capitalist society where 10% weren't prospering at the expense of the 90%

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Zerush wrote

Of course it does not exist, it is a global problem in a world governed by neo-liberal systems (even if they are called communist, like China), or by bloody dictatorships.

That is why I said before that, while sovereignty is not redirected to the people, it will be almost impossible to break these oligopolies that come from far in the past, always trying to stay in power (by the grace of God) and keep the people ignorant and obedient. This continues today, substituting freedom for savage consumerism, fostering competition where there is none.

As long as people fall into this trap, nothing will change and they will continue to vote for those who sell to the markets as if they were cattle or mere merchandise.

Even proudly wearing huge multinational logos on top of clothing, as if they were billboards, to appear more than the neighbor.

But complaining is simple, it remains to ask what to do to change this? And what alternative is there that does not create other injustices? Without forgetting that submissive and obedient sheep, unfortunately, are the vast majority.

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ziq OP wrote

you know capitalism existed before neoliberalism, right? you can't pine for 'true capitalism' on one hand and then claim it never existed on the other. capitalism has had plenty of time to create the fairness you claim it was designed for, but all it's done is exploit the bodies of billions to funnel wealth to capitalists.

an economic system that relies on the separation of classes (rich and poor, capitalist and worker) is by definition incapable of fairness

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Zerush wrote

Well, capitalism has existed since people realized that certain fixed values, be they shells or rare stones, are better for exchanging goods than exchanging goats against chickens, this is beyond any doubt.

The problem began when certain people were erected as kings or leaders, creating with their followers an elite to rule over the people.

In the background nothing has changed from this pyramidal system, the king has been replaced by a president or a lider, regardless of whether the system is called democracy, dictatorship or supposed communist regime (all of them were quickly corrupted with the same disastrous results for the people, because they never worked in their interests, but in those of the ruling elite), they all have in common the pyramidal system with a mandatory at the top.

It is a problem, as you also say, that comes from very far and is currently so stagnant that it will be a task of generations to reverse it. At the moment we can only take small steps, starting with ourselves and educating our children accordingly. If not, with the desire for infinite growth, we only go from one economic bubble to the next, interrupted by wars to reset, as so many times in history. Wars that make the rich even richer and that leave the people in rubble and misery.

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