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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

Tbh, I actually think somewhere this could be used to make a good argument for age of Concent. If someone who is under 18 has proven they can make informed decisions about their life and will stick to their guns and not easily be seated by thousands of people's berating them I think that would be a pretty good metric for ability to concent. While the tweet author does seem to have a shit opinion I honestly prefer it to the rapist nonsense that concent ability is determined by ones age and not factors that allow for consent.

I mean sure this guy is a dipshit but like also I can't say it's an easy dunk bc I definely don't want to be on the side of age of Concent ad it's a legal framework that's gives the aok to rape people who can't concent but legally can

Edit: and ovi I doubt the faith of this commenter greatly and more am trying to spur an interesting discussion rather than defend this individual who prob sucks a lot

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tuesday wrote (edited )

I think there's a lot wrong with this.

First, we don't have to agree with the concept that a thing is bad just because there's a law about it to also recognize that things that are perfectly legal can still be harmful. I can't imagine an anarchist saying that because rape wouldn't be illegal in an anarchist society that everyone ought to rape everyone they can, because there's no law against it. Even if there were no age of consent laws it would still be wrong to have sex with a child.

Second, we can simultaneously recognize a child's ability to make well informed and rational decisions in situations where they're cognitively able to understand what they're thinking about and still recognize that there's an inherent power differential between adults and children that precludes a child's ability to enthusiastically consent to a sexual relationship. Just because a child can say yes to having sex doesn't mean they are actually fully cognizant of the consequences, both physical and emotional.

Third, if we can recognize that a person who is under the effects of mind altering substances can't give consent in the same way that a person who isn't under the influence is able, then we can also recognize that children, especially teens (who are influenced by an absolute miasma of hormones) aren't going to be able to give the same fully enthusiastic consent for a sexual relationship that an adult can. Children and teens are far more susceptible to coercion and peer-pressure than adults are. They are still in the process of figuring out how to navigate society and themselves. A sexual relationship with an adult will always be coercive because it creates the expectation that this child is somehow also an adult, when speaking purely about biology and development is just not true.

Fourth, this ignores that children and teens are harmed in a lot of ways by sexualization. Sexualizing a child or a teen effectively dehumanizes them and teaches them that their value is in their desirability, rather than in the fullness of their humanity. Children and teens are more frequently developing bad mental health issues, like disordered eating, body dysphoria and depression because they are comparing themselves to sexualized images and seeing the ways that these are valued and upheld by society, and recognizing the ways that their bodies and thoughts don't fit to that standard.

Children deserve to be free from exploitation and coercion, just as much as any other human is. The fact of the matter is that as society stands right now removing age of consent laws just creates the space for the further exploitation of children and I am highly uncomfortable with the thought of making room for the sexual exploitation of children in the name of liberty.

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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

First, we don't have to agree with the concept that a thing is bad just because there's a law about it to also recognize that things that are perfectly legal can still be harmful

Yes, but in this case I think generalizations and using age as a metric for ease of use rather than actual ability to consent on a person to person basis is what creates a culture of rape where people don't even know they did something wrong and robs the autonomy and rules over those who can make decisions on their own. So my criticism applies when your comment is literally defending cultural values that cause rape. So you can't even accept that its bad so this quote seems silly.

Even if there were no age of consent laws it would still be wrong to have sex with a child.

yeah ovi, I don't think someone who can cosent to serious decisions like where they live, pursuit in life, medical proceedures, taking care of themself and having sex is something a child can do. So by nature of them being able to consent to sex they wouldn't be a child.

Just because a child can say yes to having sex doesn't mean they are actually fully cognizant of the consequences, both physical and emotional.

yeah ovi. The point I"m making is u actually have to actually meet someone and know them pretty well to know if they can do this. Age is largely irrelevant tho a bit correlated. You know if they can do that by talking to someone not asking how old they are.

then we can also recognize that children, especially teens (who are influenced by an absolute miasma of hormones) aren't going to be able to give the same fully enthusiastic consent for a sexual relationship that an adult can.

oh we are back to policing teen womens bodies bc they are just so hormonal now lol. I get such warm feelings in my body when I get to debate people on if someone is should be able to make major life decisions or not bc you know how young women are with all their hormones.

Children and teens are far more susceptible to coercion and peer-pressure than adults are.

again this isn't exactly true. Sure generally related but when I was a teenager I was already fucking vastly more resistant to coercion and peer pressure than most adults. Do you know how many adults struggle to say no? Its a fucking lot. When I was 17 I had already had years under my belt of setting firm boundaries with people and then enforcing them with violence if need be. I was steadfast and stubborn and wouldn't let anyone push me around. I literally would be the one to get into arguments with the landlord for all my roommates bc everyone else was too scared to say no.

Take one of my roommates, she like couldn't say no to anyone and was 28. Deathly afraid of conflict and was a human doormat. The consenting ability of me as a 17 year old was vastly by leaps and bounds greater than my roommate. Not that I wanted to but I have no fucking doubt in my mind in saying that if I had sex with her I would consider me to have commit sexual assault.

And this is the problem if your metric is age and not actually getting to know someone to determine on a case by case basis ability to consent you actually don't know if someone can consent. And if I listened to nonsense like this I almost would have certainly gone on to sexually assault people. Bc people live very different lives and react vastly different to situations so age can give a vague idea but really won't tell you.

I do use age a lot bc it does give a good metric due to legal rights. Say for instance almost all 16 year old don't live on their own and don't have the legal or financial ability to care for themself. So due to this lack of financial ability, legal rights and other things sex is always going to be a no. But mostly I don't have the audacity to gauge someones ability to make informed decisions until I meet them. I think anarcho decrees to try and control someones body who you have never met and know nothing about based on random correlations is really really bad.

They are still in the process of figuring out how to navigate society and themselves

you don't know u havn't met them

Fourth, this ignores that children and teens are harmed in a lot of ways by sexualization. Sexualizing a child or a teen effectively dehumanizes them and teaches them that their value is in their desirability, rather than in the fullness of their humanity. Children and teens are more frequently developing bad mental health issues, like disordered eating, body dysphoria and depression because they are comparing themselves to sexualized images and seeing the ways that these are valued and upheld by society, and recognizing the ways that their bodies and thoughts don't fit to that standard.

idk where this came from tbh

Children deserve to be free from exploitation and coercion, just as much as any other human is

I disagree completely. The whole point of your argument is to 1. advocate on not determining consent on a case by case basis but by age which is only mildly associated with ability which is actual rape apologia. 2. Their is also the purpose of infantilizations and advocating for those who you deem arbitrarily to be undeveloped not be able to make decisions for themself which is actual coercion. If someone can accept the ramifications, set firm boundaries, not have exploitative relations and a whole host of other nuances of consent then not allowing them to make major life decisions bc their hormones and its best for them is abusive as hell. Trying to decide for people you have never met if they can make major life decisions and promoting restriction a small minority of those under 18 who can consent is shitty af and controlling.

I mean I sound harsh but u r just advocating against consent and just dumping out talking points used to this day to take advantage of and control younger women and queer people. Bc the addition that people can't handle the serious physical ramifications of sex bc hormones they definitely can't make decisions about major life decisions like abortions, moving out, hormone therapy, gender confirmations surgery ect ect. Tho mostly bc if I thought like U I would be a rapist. Not saying u r I am saying this mindset allows for rape due to making assumptions rather than actually determining Consent. And when u assume Consent and don't actual confirm u have it it's called sexual assault.

Edit: ultimately I think this is mostly a disagreement over me explaining myself better so u got the wrong idea so the arguments don't work that great. So not really a super big deal and I should have been more specific

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