Recent comments in /f/Vegan

celebratedrecluse wrote

I find that foods that have more protein in them tend to be priced more expensively, across the board. There's kind of a class gradient to it, that I've been thinking about a lot recently. I think it is certainly possible to eat a vegan diet for cheaper than an omnivorous one, subsidies be damned-- however, is it a nutritionally equal diet? Honestly, I think that once you start looking at what is actually contained within the meals, you start to notice how many carbohydrates are in most affordable vegan diets. Protein profiles, vitamins and minerals, lipids, I think these are all nutritionally important, and they are priced to a premium when you get these nutrients as special supplements rather than as part of your food which you already paid for.

There's also the element of how contemporary vegan diets have been economically made possible. Having a high quality vegan diet which equals or excels an omnivorous diet nutritionally is very possible, but it's going to require variation. In the economic context of monocultural agriculture, colonial axes of capitalism, results in disastrous consequences for people all over the world. For example, the consumption of quinoa by western coastal libs has made it unaffordable in many of the areas where it is a traditional food of poor people. However, the demands of the vegan consumer market have imported it, because it is now an important part of how vegan diets are constituted.

Now, if we werent wasting all our soy and corn on cowfeed, and instead just cultivated the land with plants for human consumption, it would be a different story of course. But in the moment we are in, I think that eating both vegan and healthily can have some negative social consequences because of the overall mode of production. The reason I bring things like this into discussion, is because I think many vegans (people who self-identify and find a sense of identity and community in it) articulate that this is their brand of politics, but it's just consumerism. there are limits to what can be achieved with consumer politics, and it is also very alienating to other people when you take an attitude of moral purity to activity under capitalism.

Many people already struggle to eat properly every day...I think I am more concerned with just encouraging a social environment where dietary choices aren't this incredibly important decision, but instead is an easy thing for people to do healthily. that, to me, means making great vegan food accessible, and changing other peoples' impression of vegan diets as a practice anyone can pick up, rather than a proscriptive code, exclusive clique, or rigid identity.

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selver wrote (edited )

Why would you measure it by protein count and amino acids? I don't think that's a useful metric. Cost per week on a vegan diet would make more sense. Worrying about trace animal ingredients seems a bit silly to me so I don't know the economics of that.

The other stuff are good arguments (disability, kitchen access, etc), but I don't think anyone here is telling those people they can't eat meat.

If you really do have such impediments then sure it's a valid reason to not be vegan, I'm not going to question someone who says they have circumstances that make it more expensive, I just don't it's true as a general rule that it's cheaper to eat meat.

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pearl wrote

sure, apply your American bias based on US gov't subsidies that don't exist everywhere. Way to be a narrow-minded nationalist.

The map very clearly shows the US and Australia as some of the deepest red, so offering context that reveals that its somewhat misleading to use the sarcastic "It costs too much to be Vegan." aimed at the American working class.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Per protein count, its cheaper, and its also higher quality protein (more variety of amino acids), to eat a chicken meat than it is to eat beans. it is also much more available, animal products are in many things, and usually the cheapest things, because of mass production & subsidies. beans, for example, sometimes have animal products in the cans too.

also lots of poor people dont reliably have access to a full kitchen, or have transport to get to special stores, or are disabled, etc. there are a million barriers to people eating correctly. perhaps in canada, or some other places, it is easier, and all the poor omnivores are just ignorant or something. That seems like a very classist perspective to take though, so I disagree with the people in thread who are saying that, although I don't know their context directly it strikes me as a strangely conservative argument in my own context.

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thekraken OP wrote (edited )

Maybe in the US. Where I live (Canada), it's far cheaper to eat vegan than carnivore. But sure, apply your American bias based on US gov't subsidies that don't exist everywhere. Way to be a narrow-minded nationalist.

And even so, I highly doubt vegan staples such as bulk beans and rice and other items like frozen or canned veg / farmer's market fresh veg / cost more than any sort of meat, even in the USA. I know I can go to a chain bulk store here that also exists in the US and stock up on dried legumes, TVP, nutritional yeast, baking goods, etc for far far cheaper than it costs for even the same items at a supermarket, let alone what beef/chicken/pork cost.

Many poor people (of which I am also one) eat poorly due to lack of knowledge on how to properly prepare and cook nutritious food. I lived for five years in a 'food desert' and saw many many people simply buying their "groceries" at a dollar store, primarily in the form of cheap frozen processed shit that was quite often animal-based - and their costs still came out ahead of mine from just taking an hour to go bulk store shopping on my bike and hitting a fresh market on the way home.

So yes, there are classist and predatory issues in regards to which type of stores are in the neighbourhoods of the poor in North America, but there is to a greater degree a need for education and available public transportation, since actual food costs for a vegan diet are always going to be cheaper unless you're living on highly processed vegan foods like Beyond Meat and Chao slices.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Well, yeah, the cost of resources to eat meat is very high.

However, for poor people in Western countries, especially america-- it is cheaper to eat animal products than vegan ones, and only a bourgeois person would claim otherwise. Just go to the vegan-friendly food co-op for rich urban dwellers, and then compare that to the prices and selection at the poor peoples' grocer in the next neighborhood over. You can do this in any major city of the US. The only difference for rural areas is that they usually don't even have a rich people grocer to compare to.

Obviously, the subsidies to the meat and dairy and egg industries change the price from its natural position to a lower one, and the fetishization of vegan lifestyles by bourgeois fools raises artificially the price. But you know, sure, let's continue to stigmatize working class people in food deserts

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Freux wrote

Intersectionality! The meat industry is slaughtering so many animals for the few that overconsume meat. My view on veganism isn't about attacking people that can't survive without meat nor people that aren't privilege to make the choice to go toward veganism but to challenge those that could but refuses because "meat taste too good lol".

I don't care that people eat eggs, drink milk, eat meat, but I care of the way they get it. There is exploitation with a vegan diet too but there would be even more if we would all eat meat.

Like not voting, it doesn't take away exploitation but it delegitimize it.

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Tequila_Wolf OP wrote

I don't read it as bashing veganism, mostly it seems to me to be noting the consequences of the dietary change. I'm not sure where you read the bit about cashews being necessary for veganism, I missed it. To some degree they probably are - if it weren't cashews it might just as easily be something as harmful.

I post it because I think it's important to ruthlessly critique veganism, just because there are so many garbage vegans who don't give a shit about people's suffering. This is not to say that we shouldn't be vegan, rather it is towards having people get a greater knowledge of effects of eating the foods they eat in their specific context.

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transtifa wrote (edited )

This article seems to be bashing veganism, with that line about cashews being necessary for veganism...

Like... Idk what the right course of action with this kind of thing is. It's good to be aware, but like...

I don't believe in the "No Ethical Consumption Under Capitalism" meme, but it's pretty hard to have grips on my consumption in this kinda environment.

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existential1 wrote (edited )

In addition to what others have suggested, perhaps some reflection on the fact that our bodies are not always a reflection of our minds and heart could help. They have their own needs that must be met, sometimes in spite of our beliefs.

For example, I have a weird ear issue that is due to how my body synthesize s a particular fat. If I don't get an excess amount of it during certain allergen/pollen seasons, I have seriously painful earaches and pressure issues. As a result of that diagnoses, I pretty much have the choices of taking drugs to alleviate pain but do nothing to solve underlying issue that could affect my long term hearing, or eat fish like once a month. I can also temper the pain by consuming a lot of walnuts...but they are very expensive where I live and alone account for ~$60 in groceries per month...when my budget was $200.

I thought it was totally bogus at first, and it insulted my vegan sensibilities, but eventually I ate some fish to see what would happen and my severe earache went away overnight. So for me personally, and what I would suggest to you if your issue is also one that is lifelong, is to forgive your body for not living up to your mind's ideals and accept that to live you must compromise sometimes. Our bodies are not perfect.

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Tequila_Wolf OP wrote

There's something in the way that fascists often like to humanise animals as they dehumanise people.

In a few spaces I know of veganism is associated with fascist groups in particular.

More reading (all from f/Vegan) if anybody is interested:

Dismantling White Veganism

Decolonising Veganism to Make it More Accessible and Less Racist

The Indigenous Fight Against Colonial Veganism

Three Ways Black Veganism Challenges White Supremacy

Why are White Vegans SHOOK When You Talk About White Supremacy and Capitalism? (btw they should be)

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