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TheLegendaryBirdMonster wrote

I agree with this article in theory but when confronted to one, I do not find bivalves appetizing.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

Replying to Fossidarity (#99,383)

Mussels have responses to stimuli (Stephano 2002), including stress (Anestis et al. 2008), and as we have seen, may make decisions based on threats of predation ((Gartner & Litvaikis (2013); Robson, Wilson, and Garcia de Leaniz (2007)).

I don't know about domesticated species, but this is not uncommon for plants either. Sometimes intensely so! Giraffes have to move upwind as they eat because the trees tell the other trees that there's danger and they make themselves bitter.
So I'd be interested to learn more about this.

The case for eating mussels for b12 doesn't get any airtime in these articles, based on a quick readthrough.
An open question to Raddle on vitamin B12, researching harms as vegans, and Cobalt

edit: Sorry I think I linked to a comment in the main post and not the post itself; have changed it.

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Fossidarity wrote (edited )

Replying to Tequila_Wolf (#99,390)

That's a good argument, I've never heard of plants adapting to animals through communication like that. I also didn't know that the B12 supplements exploited miners..

Personally I would love eating mussels to be ethical, I think they're super delicious.

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Replying to ziq (#99,396)

Regarding vitamin D and how vitamin D supplementation seems ineffective, I thought this was a interesting read recently.

The Shady Link Between Sunscreen and Your Health

(tl;dr vitamin D itself doesn't do much, "These rebels argue that what made the people with high vitamin D levels so healthy was not the vitamin itself. That was just a marker. Their vitamin D levels were high because they were getting plenty of exposure to the thing that was really responsible for their good health—that big orange ball shining down from above.")

I would be interested to see other people corroborate this!

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Replying to ziq (#99,389)

I wonder how farmed mussels are farmed. If they are farmed in artificial pools, for them to have B12 in them they would still need to be supplemented with the relevant forms of cobalt. So either they wouldn't have the B12 because there'd be no supplementation, or they would have to be supplemented, which might actually mean the same sorts of problems we'd get from supplementation anywhere.

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Fossidarity wrote

Replying to Tequila_Wolf (#99,534)

Dietary source of vitamin B12 intake and vitamin B12 status in female elderly Koreans aged 85 and older living in rural area

On dietary source, 67.3% of dietary vitamin B12 was from meat, eggs and fishes and 30.6% was from plant foods, such as soybean-fermented foods, seaweeds, and kimchi.

Vitamin B12-Containing Plant Food Sources for Vegetarians

However, a fermented soybean-based food called tempe contains a considerable amount of Vitamin B12 (0.7–8.0 μg/100 g)

.

In addition, high levels of Vitamin B12 were detected in the commercially available dried shiitake mushroom fruiting bodies (Lentinula edodes), which are used in various vegetarian dishes. The Vitamin B12 contents of dried shiitake mushroom fruiting bodies (100 g dry weight) significantly varied and the average Vitamin B12 value was approximately 5.61 μg

.

Various types of edible algae are consumed worldwide as food sources. Dried green laver (Enteromorpha sp.) and purple laver (Porphyra sp.) are the most widely consumed edible algae, and they contain substantial amounts of Vitamin B12 (approximately 63.6 μg/100 g dry weight and 32.3 μg/100 g dry weight, respectively)

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A nutritional analysis of six vegan children who had consumed vegan diets including brown rice and dried purple laver (nori) for 4–10 years suggested that the consumption of nori may prevent Vitamin B12 deficiency in vegans

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chakarera wrote

Replying to betterletter (#99,503)

The bacteria that ferments tempeh doesn't produce b12. There was a study where they tested random samples of tempeh from some street markets in jakarta and some had varying amounts of b12, probably from contamination with bacteria that does produce b12. Tempeh sold in the west does not have b12, there's more food safety regulations and it's fermented in an otherwise sterile environment.

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chakarera wrote

Replying to deleted__ (#99,428)

https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/

The bacteria that produce kombucha, tempeh etc don't produce b12, it's possible in DIY style setups b12 producing bacteria is present from contamination. In communities were people ate vegan diets and believed they got enough b12 from fermented foods or soil or whatever, some develop deficiency, some don't, there's no known reliable non-animal source besides supplements. Considering how cheap and easy it is to supplement and the serious harm from deficiency it's irresponsible to not recommend vegans supplement b12.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

Replying to chakarera (#99,578)

  1. Cobalt is acquired by violent imperialism and slave labor.

  2. Depends on destructive industry to mine, refine and process.

  3. Depends on globalisation and capitalism to distribute.

  4. Self sufficiency and autonomy from the system are important to a lot of anarchists who look for the least harmful option in every situation.

  5. It's questionable whether supplements even work.

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chakarera wrote

Replying to ziq (#99,589)

  1. It's really not questionable, b12 deficiency is a real thing with very serious health consequences and is fixed with supplements all the time. And it's not just a vegan issue either, I'm vegan now but years ago when I was omni I had low b12 (from blood test) that I fixed with supplements.

Yes I agree with your other points and would like a reliable non-animal source of b12 that we can make ourselves. But what do you think about https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12-plant-foods/ ? As far as I understand, it is possible to get b12 from natural plant sources, but it isn't well understood how to do so reliably, and a lot of people that tried developed deficiency and health problems.

And I don't want to risk my own health so I keep taking b12 supplements. And I want healthy comrades so I strongly recommend other vegans to supplement b12. (omnis are already supplementing indirectly as cobalt and b12 is added in mass to animal feed, cause if they're pastured raised soil is cobalt depleted nowadays and if they're factory farmed inside eating grains they don't get b12)

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Tequila_Wolf wrote

Replying to Fossidarity (#99,583)

Where is the B12 coming from in the tempeh though? Has to get cobalt from something.

I wonder about the mushrooms and algae and nori too. I doubt any of these foods are available where I live.

I've been told repeatedly that there are no plant sources of B12 outside of not washing the sand off your plants.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

Replying to Tequila_Wolf (#99,773)

If you already have a deficiency, you need treatment, not fortified foods.

Get methylcobalamin injections from a pharmacy. You can get them over the counter in most countries except the US, where they're illegal unless administered by a licensed practitioner.

Inject into your thighs (into a muscle) daily for a week and then monthly until you recover. Make sure to pull back on the needle slightly to make sure you didn't hit a vein. Choose a different injection site each time.

Vitamin B12 Deficiency - 1000 mcg of methylcobalamin injected intramuscularly once daily for up to ten days. Depression - 1 mg of methylcobalamin injected intramuscularly once per week for four weeks. Cognitive Function - 1000 mcg injected daily for five days, followed by a monthly injection of 1000 mcg for five months.

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ziq OP wrote (edited )

Replying to chakarera (#99,598)

methylcobalamin injections work for sure, but I've read a lot of studies showing that most vitamin complex supplements taken orally have no effect, especially vitamin D. Idk about b12, but my experience is that the only way to correct a severe deficiency is with injections.

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chakarera wrote

Replying to deleted__ (#99,776)

https://veganhealth.org/b12-status-of-raw-foodist-vegans/#Finland

In a study of some people consuming 2kg a day of home made ferments, half developed b12 deficiency. It seems in theory we should be able to get enough b12 from ferments and seaweed and stuff but they also contain ineffective b12 analogues so it's hard to study and we don't really know how to reliably get enough b12 on a vegan diet without supplementing.

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chakarera wrote

Replying to ziq (#99,823)

As far as I understand, with b12, methylcobalamin is better absorbed than cyanocobalamin but slightly more expensive, and injections work best followed by sublingual tablets, followed by chewable tablets. Though chewable cyanocobalamin works for most people (I had mild deficiency and it worked for me), but with a long term severe b12 deficiency people lose the ability to absorb or convert it or something and only respond to injections.

With vitamin D it's obviously preferable to spend time outside and get enough sunshine rather than supplement. But it requires anywhere from 15 minutes to a couple hours a day, depending on how much skin you have exposed, how dark your skin color is, and how sunny it is, to get enough. And not everyone can do that depending on their lifestyle. Now I am outside plenty and don't need to supplement but years ago I was working inside from before sunrise to after sunset and got zero sunlight except a little on weekends, and developed vitamin D deficiency that I fixed taking supplements. d3 is more effective than d2, but more expensive and also not normally vegan. Now there is vegan d3 produced by some kind of lichen. After the industrial revolution with babies being raised without sunlight rickets became a big problem until they started adding d2 supplement to milk. vitamin D deficiency isn't nearly as serious as b12 but can cause low energy/fatigue and bone health problems, I think it's recommended for vegans to supplement if they can't get enough sunlight.

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h4kn2 wrote

Replying to ziq (#99,396)

Why can't you just take a B12 supplement? Ridiculous that the first thing you'd consider as a supposed vegan (or maybe you're that special type of omnivore called vegetarian?) would be eating an animal that questionably may feel pain

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h4kn2 wrote

Replying to ziq (#99,589)

I only see sources that animals directly need cobalt to create B12 from their metabolism - can you cite how cobalt is required for labratory synthesis of cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamine?

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JScFEd1ufKW5f8q3 wrote (edited )

Cobalt is present as a trace mineral in many plant foods grown in soil where it is present. B12 producing bacteria are widely dispersed, living even in your large intestine and on your skin.

As I live nowhere near an ocean, and many waters are contaminated anyways, I'm going to lean towards finding a reliable non-animal collector of cobalt (brassicas?) and using that to culture some of the already present B12 producing bacteria. Or maybe even a transgenic ecoli if necessary.

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