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5

happy wrote

I dont understand why Peter spends so much time writing about why veganism doesn't make sense, or has no possibility for societal change, or anything else be writes about. Also please cite some sources with the claims you make.

Idk, Peter seems like the type of guy thats against veganism because a vegan told him to stop eating so much meat once.

3

veg wrote

fucking exactly. Its just a whole "vegans hurt my feelings" whinefest disguised as anarchist literature

0

flicker wrote

i can add to qualify for the record my personal non-vegan (or whatever) stance, that i have been interested in this conversation contemplating my feelings or ethical compass about it for some time since seeing the supremacist abusive behavior so normalized by factory farming and sport-killers and civilian consumers so removed from the lives of these sublime creatures they ignorantly or greedily devour . hunting fishing and Working-out are hobbies like Philosophy Farming, War and Vacation, cultural traditions i decline to fall in with. - when going for a hike i would leave the fishing pole at home, preferring to just sit by the water and read a book or climb a tree as the Anglers out for sport are so many and i'm not want catch the fish for to eat -we are sick with plenty of food so i'd rather let the fishies be. And i'm glad to know they're around, thriving - that there's a home for us in the forest and on the beach.

anyway -for context of meaning, to answer: "why not?"-;. i don't need to have milk or eggs or mollusks or crustaceans or insects or fish or animal-flesh or honey. my guts absolutely prefer fruits and veggies and legumes and shrooms , and maybe in a future- habitat it will be more feasible to consistently eat in accordance with my own ethical choice . i honestly don't know whether that might include milk or eggs etcetera on any given unknown day but, i do want to organize with people for whom it certainly will. to cultivate nurture an affinity for ethical neighborhood relationshipa that i may try a slice of buttermilk cake with the coffee or whatever without being ethically complicit to Murder or Rape, that people might coalesce and network to carve out possibilities of the life-worth-living.

-1

flicker wrote (edited )

not specifically related to this article perhaps, but maybe "non-veganism" (distinctly-not antiveganism or Nonveganism) is a refusal of the ethical Identity that might be adopted as shielding in reaction to industrialized exploitation / for-profit cruelty or a squeamish aversion to savagery and killing, in preference for a more liberative intersectional praxis

-2

ctuyed wrote

Maybe he's just sick of you anarchists always obsessing over every form of domination like some Jesus freak.

1

veg wrote

this is an anarchist website. why are you here if you dont like anarchists?

1

ctuyed wrote

Where does it say it's an anarchist website?

2

veg wrote (edited )

https://raddle.me/wiki/history

Though we don't restrict our site to any specific ideology, Raddle is managed according to libertarian anarchist concepts in order to provide the best experience to its users

1

ctuyed wrote

You just proved it's not restricted to anarchists.

1

veg wrote

may I ask what your ideology is and what brought you to raddle?

-1

ctuyed wrote

Communism. I came here to point and laugh at liberal anarchists being scared of their own shadows.

1

veg wrote (edited )

you're scared of eating plants, so...

edit: Carnists get gulags coward

1

ctuyed wrote

Pretty sure I eat plenty of plants. Potato chips, corn chips, tacos.

2

veg wrote

so you eat a bunch of monocultured corn. lmao

0

ctuyed wrote

Not all of us can afford avocado toast and tofu tendies, richie rich.

0

ctuyed wrote

You're going to put me in prison for eating meat? Lmao anarkiddies.

1

veg wrote

tankies would give people the wall for not eating meat tbh. and take the obvious joke

0

ctuyed wrote

Well yeah, that's child endangerment.

1

veg wrote

infants and children can grow up fine on vegetarian diets even without supplements. there have been abundances of vegetarian societies in the past.

to be fair, one must be very careful raising fully vegan children without supplements

-2

ctuyed wrote

It's very anarchist of you to tell children they can't eat meat.

2

veg wrote

Not even children have to right to murder animals, no.

Although if I had my own children I would let them decide for themselves

-3

ctuyed wrote

You anarchists and your rights. It's so cute.

2

veg wrote

can you please just use a slur or something already so we can ban you

-2

ctuyed wrote

Nope. I did find this place when I was browsing leftpol (for the lolz) but I can tell when I'm around idpol and self-censor.

2

hjek wrote

I read a bit of his book, The Failure of Nonviolence. Also, all the social centres here in UK stock his zines. He seems to be really popular, and this isn't his only piece about veganism. See also Veganism is a consumer activity.

I can understand why someone would argue that veganism isn't itself sufficient for liberating animals (which isn't a reason for eating their flesh), but Gelderloos is proper into vegan bashing, which I didn't expect to be a thing among anarchists.

I find his writing and argumentation quite random. Just finished reading Peter Singer's Animal Liberation. I don't think he'd describe himself as anarchist, but his reasoning is much more sound. I kinda think Chomsky's right when describing anarchism as a tendency that shows up in different places as it clearly shows up more in Singer's writing than Gelderloos'.

3

happy wrote

Ive read a few of his essays and his view on anarchism and violence was interesting to me, but now im thinking that it might just be justification for masculine violence within anarchy?

Also Melanie Joy‘s (not an anarchist, but a sociologist) views on carnism removing empathy towards other living beings I think are really important in defending veganism.

2

hjek wrote

Also Melanie Joy‘s [...] views on carnism

Thanks for the tip! Lots of good videos by her.

3

happy wrote

My comment reminded me about how I‘ve been wanting to read her book on Carnism and so far its a great read. Not too far into it yet though.

2

hjek wrote (edited )

Been going through her videos. She is really good!

She's talking on a level my family would get, yet she still takes the anti-speciesism a little bit further than Peter Singer.

She doesn't throw blame at flesh eaters for being the victims of conditioning, but meets them with empathy in this; yet she's still not watering down her argumentation, like some people talk about nutrition only and avoid ethics (because perhaps they consider it too sensitive or divisive).

Very approachable way of getting the message across. Going to see if I can find her book as well. Thanks again for the recommendation.

I particularly like how she's re-framing the discussion to be about carnism instead of veganism. Taking it back to Peter Gelderloos, it's very easy to see how to him veganism is an ideology while carnism obviously isn't; from the very first line:

Proponents of an ideology typically fail to distinguish between those who have not yet encountered the new ideas they offer, and those who have absorbed these ideas and moved on. The very point of an ideology is that you’re not meant to move on from it; however every ideology, at the very best, has only been a resting point in an onward theoretical journey.

3

happy wrote

Ill upload the pdf I have but it seems like coinsh isnt loading for me right now. I found the PDF on b-ok.xyz though

Ya, I think its similiar to the effectiveness to Earthlings in that it doesn't give arguments for veganism, but arguments to stop engaging in the current hegemonic behavior.

3

veg wrote

ew, this is just some dude whining about "but wut about b12 tho"

2

hjek wrote

Yea, and iron. But he also has some really far out arguments:

The Western tragic ideal, which is inextricable from the capitalist war against nature, presents death as a bad thing, and apparently so do some vegans, but to the rest of us, this only appears as philosophical immaturity.

I mean... Yea, nuclear war is also only bad if you don't like death and suffering.

I don't agree with the author, but many of my anarchist friends keep recommending (and giving me!) his books. I just wondered how people here would have to say about anarchist flesh eater literature, because I find it hard to swallow.

-2

ctuyed wrote

What about b12 tho?

3

veg wrote (edited )

right now, fortified cereals and supplements.

in an anarchist society (if we can ever make that happen), personally owned hens of mutual benefit that are released or cared for instead of slaughtered after peak egg production.

edit: possibly clams, oysters, and mussels as well. I dont personally eat them but i could consider them vegan.

0

flicker wrote

fortified cereals and supplements

what is the source of those minerals food-additives ?

unwashed greens will carry B-12 in the microbial bugshit that's removed from the market-produce

-1

flicker wrote

you saying eggs are vegan food too?hmm how about goat's milk?

1

veg wrote

Eggs are not vegan food. There is currently no way to ethically consume eggs, or milk. Sometime in the future, maybe. Personally I oppose industry so we will need natural vitamin sources

1

flicker wrote (edited )

i traded labor -pruning and clearing - for berries and milk, with a guy i called Ol Ben Kenobi . and brought milk to town for a mother to feed her infant child as she wasn't able to produce milk herself and cow's milk is not digestible to human babies. the guy had refused a full scholarship to UCLA and instead bought the land -with his little inheritance- where he planted walnuts , grapes and blueberries , pears apples and cherries, after dropping so much acid and tripping out he couldn't care less about playing football . and i talked with him , he called me Kilimanjaro. the milk and berries make a fine smoothie drink to supplement fat and protein and the goats can wander with us as there isn't always enough seeds and beans .

"industry" has 2 incongruent definitions

0

flicker wrote (edited )

and are you imposing a hierarchy of sentience or cognitive capacity through a vertebrate-centric perspective where it can be "Vegan" to eat spineless creatures ?

1

veg wrote

Yes in fact I am. Because things without brains can't suffer, it's that simple. I have no personal interest in eating invertebrates, but I see no problem with it really. Invertebrates are similar to plants in the way that they can react to their environments, but they are not at all sentient

-3

ctuyed wrote

Why don't you just eat crickets?

5

veg wrote

their lives are not mine to take

1

flicker wrote (edited )

their lives are not mine to take

i wouldn't suggest that their life is yours exactly just , maybe that the boundary isn't so definitely straight edged, and that living in relative abundance inherently necessitates choosing an interdependent discipline which honors reciprocal balance , of all creatures. accepting, receiving, reaping or ingesting isn't the same as taking , consuming or extorting . killing isn't the same as murdering.

edit: theBuddha don't murder their idols in the road

-2

ctuyed wrote

When you buy them they'll already be dead.

2

veg wrote

exactly

-1

ctuyed wrote

So you're fine with enslaving animals for their manure to grow your cucumbers but you draw the line at crickets? K.

3

veg wrote

animal slavery is not necessary to farm plants. they can grow in wild environments. dont try to tell me i should be eating some sort of all-cricket diet because of nO eThiCaL cOnSumPtiOn

-2

ctuyed wrote

Until you start eating plants that grew wild, maybe you should stop preaching at me?

-1

ctuyed wrote

And by wild, I don't mean plants that your mom bought from walmart.

2

veg wrote

i eat mostly veg from the farmers market and whole grain flour. i just do my best. whats your defense for not being vegan again?

-1

ctuyed wrote

i eat mostly veg from the farmers market and whole grain flour.

Look at you.

whats your defense for not being vegan again?

Animals taste real good.