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yam wrote

prioritize ideologies over the autonomy of individuals

Ya, well, prioritizing ideologies that just so also happens to be about prioritizing the autonomy of individuals (who in this case also includes certain other class of individuals whose autonomy is often prioritized very low).

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ruin wrote

Your decision to isolate seven words and twist the already well established context of this discussion would seem to reinforce my statement rather than than oppose it.

There’s a difference between ideas and ideologies. There is also difference in the reality of survival for people living in different circumstances.

I’m not trying to argue that you or anyone shouldn’t be a vegan, or promote veganism for that matter.

I only suggest that individuals (anarchists especially) should consider whether they should make choices for others that they haven’t the faintest knowledge of or engagement with in any aspect of their life.

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Lulia wrote

I think you missed the point of the italicisation. The other classes of individuals who are prioritised lowly are the animals. The idea that animal bodily autonomy is ideology and that you're not making a choice for those animals by murdering them is some weird carnist logic.

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ruin wrote

I can see that. I was reading it in the specific context of indigenous people, as that was the discussion at that point.

You could also say that the idea of autonomy doesn’t assume the complete removal of the risk of physical harm in anything but a utopian world view. If we’re to reject anthropocentrism and speciesism and that were the case, we’d paint predatory species as denying the autonomy of their prey.

I appreciate your point though. I’m interested in how and why individuals feel justified in making these value statements in addition to where they choose to draw the line for others.

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yam wrote

I only suggest that individuals (anarchists especially) should consider whether they should make choices for others that they haven’t the faintest knowledge of or engagement with in any aspect of their life.

Exactly. The dilemma being either making a choice about what someone should eat or making a choice that someone else should be eaten. I'm not sure a "don't make choices for others" position exists.

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ruin wrote

I agree. It may not exist.

My position is that making the choice based on abstractions reified as truths is lazy and dull in addition to being rather authoritarian.

It’s much easier to proselytize with some good/evil binary, but such a framework is near useless in life.

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yam wrote

It’s much easier to proselytize with some good/evil binary, but such a framework is near useless in life.

Yup, 100% this.

I think this good/evil binary can confuse non-vegans about veganism, as in "Are you then not allowed to kill a mosquito?" and all that.

My friends got some rescue chickens in their garden. After a few weeks they grew their feathers back. They're very sociable. My friends eat the eggs that those chickens lay.

I don't eat those eggs myself (because I've come to dislike the idea of eating eggs myself) but am I going to say anything about them "not being vegans" for cooking those eggs? No way, because it looks to me like the chickens are having a good time. Their living standards are likely amongst the top 0.0000001% of chickens.

Where I think a somewhat firm binary is occasionally helpful is in resistance to "humane-washing", like "free range" or "welfare slaughtered".

(I think there are parallels to the discussion about authority / anarchism with, say, Chomsky being arguably less binary with this idea of justified authority.)

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ruin wrote

I think this good/evil binary can confuse non-vegans about veganism, as in "Are you then not allowed to kill a mosquito?" and all that.

It confuses everyone.

Sounds like your friends and the chickens have a nice symbiotic relationship going on.

As far as the anarchism/authority balance, I’d tell Chomsky to fuck off. To refer to him an antiauthoritarian or anarchist would be analogous to marketing free range or humane slaughter corpses.

Thanks for adding to the discussion. It’s been enjoyable.

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