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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

For me I thought it was kinda funny bc they were saying how different their black Thanksgiving is and just described exactly what happens at both sides of my families Thanksgiving. Like what does this person think white thangiving is like? Do we talk about how great being settlers is and then circle jerk each other about the greatness of colonialism. Thankgiving for literally everyone I know if just relaxing and eating food with family.

So this just comes off as someone hearing anti Colonia and anti racist critique of their activity and responding nu uh I can't be anti indigenous cuz I'm black. Which is pretty tone deaf and a pretty bad mindset overall.

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kin wrote

Depends, I understand why you are saying that but I imagine this person is coming from a place where their position is being questioned bc of their skin. Like blacks need to position themselves in every question, at every moment when they are asked to. Like they have their individuality denied and got treated as a monolith in idpol.

A black folk is always in need to ascertain their blackness (and the whole package of politics position that white liberals expect from them). For me this is whiteness in playing. Not so much black folks ignoring indian/native struggle issue or black folks wanting a pass on a situation that poor white working people face too.

This whole black friday-thanksgiving boycott is more performative imo. If people are eager to acknowledge the Indian movement and their struggle why not be more active on it?

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lettuceLeafer OP wrote

but I imagine this person is coming from a place where their position is being questioned bc of their skin. Like blacks need to position themselves in every question, at every moment when they are asked to. Like they have their individuality denied and got treated as a monolith in idpol.

A black folk is always in need to ascertain their blackness (and the whole package of politics position that white liberals expect from them). For me this is whiteness in playing. Not so much black folks ignoring indian/native struggle issue or black folks wanting a pass on a situation that poor white working people face too.

Hmm, I think I get what u r saying which makes the tweet more understandable. Though I'm a bit far removed from being in such a situation so I have trouble trying to grasp such a feeling.

This whole black friday-thanksgiving boycott is more performative imo. If people are eager to acknowledge the Indian movement and their struggle why not be more active on it?

I completely agree that most people complaining about Thanksgiving are being performative. And that not going to Thanksgiving doesn't do anything practically.

Though indigenous people complaining about Thanksgiving was far more interesting. While people aren't hegemonic all the indigenous people I follow were complaining about Thanksgiving with using the event to do fundraising for themselves or indigenous mutual aid groups. Which was pretty interesting. Was a pretty good move too sine they had some decent success.

So I bring this up because I think in this case it isn't performative. It reminded me of when marginalized people are just complaint about their oppression in a more abstract way like saying fuck men, cishets suck or complaining about white people. All which I'm fine with.

I mostly hold that stance that it's not particularly useful but ehh let people vent. It's not about u and responding to someone venting their frustration about oppression by whining "I'm a good white, cishet or man" is annoying.

So when I was a child going to American schools Thanksgiving parties or whatever for the younger children was was often really messed up. I.e. encouraging children to ugh dress up as natives by wearing fake feathers in their hair and being really into nature. That pared with telling about how harmonious settlers and natives were together until the natives started to become savages. To call the thangiving periods for schoolchildren racist and covering up genocide would be an understatement.

It would not surprise me if for most native people in the US had a similar experience albiet less horrible than my case. So if they think of Thanksgiving they way think of Thanksgiving being used as a time to spread colonial propaganda.

Now for me I had completely forgot about this until I really thought about it bc my thoughts of Thanksgiving we're more recent events of just chilling with family and eating food.

If this would be people's memory of thankgiving being brought up with the holiday that sounds borderline traumatic. But even not being reminded that people celebrate a holiday in remembrance of your oppression almost certainly isn't a fun thing to deal with.

So I guess my thought process is that people counter complaining about indigenous people voicing their frustration should just shut up or otherwise look no better than teenage boys responding not all men to feminist complaints.

While I think my analysis is probably more correct I did find your thoughts very interesting as I hadn't thought about it that way at all. So thanks for the idea which probably has some merit or an even more correct analysis than mine.

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existential1 wrote

Conversation A = "People should not celebrate Thanksgiving because [insert anti-indigenous reasoning]" Fact A = Black people in the US were enslaved and to date, as a group, have not achieved an equitable status in society as determined by nearly any metric one could conceivably examine Person A = Black woman Statement A = Person A states the people of Fact A can use any federally sanctioned non-work day, including the holiday from Conversation A, as a day of rest.

Now am I expected to care about whether or not Statement A is necessary, accurate, or well constructed? I don't think I care on any of these counts.

Everyone is the protagonist in their own story. Some people have a hard time accepting that they are mere bit characters or a part of the antagonist group of other people's stories.

The linked post is not a hot take. It's like 2012 lukewarm. It's a tired conversation at this point. Let it rest.

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