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9

amongstclouds wrote

You have to become M I L I T A N T in your attitude towards cissies. I am to be my most authentic self because my kink is making the cis feel uncomfortable. HAHAHAHA.

6

Leve wrote

Is your kink transferrable and if so can you mail it to me?

I'm not really sure how to turn militancy on unfortunately.

6

amongstclouds wrote

It's taken many years of being harassed and seeing others around me hurting.

7

Leve wrote

So much to look forward to!

7

amongstclouds wrote

Yesterday, this woman went to hand me my change and her attitude changed real quick when she decided to stare at my face for a couple of second. She dropped the changed at me real quick.

So I put it back on the counter and pushed it back at her with a smile. Made sure to drop a 'snowflake,' at her direction before I left. Watching their faces get bright red fuels me.

6

kore wrote

hold back and examine why certain appearances are deemed "queer'

5

Leve wrote

Please elaborate

7

celebratedrecluse wrote

The commodification of queer aesthetics results in a class-based distribution of queerness, relegating queer experience to a superstructure role in reference to a capitalist economic system

in reality, queerness is embodied, performed, not worn or owned

however, I don't fully agree with this argument-- I think that it can be a bit class-reductive, wearing affirming clothes can be a great way to ameliorate dysphoria or address other social needs queer people might have or face.

5

Leve wrote

I'm not wearing the clothes because they're queer or to participate in some predefined queer aesthetic, I'm wearing the clothes because I want to. The problem is my awareness of the the way that the world will interpret me.

4

celebratedrecluse wrote

I'm not wearing the clothes because they're queer or to participate in some predefined queer aesthetic, I'm wearing the clothes because I want to.

Well, if we want to get into the weeds about this there's some give and take on this point. Your desires don't spring from nowhere, or from an essentialized conception of selfhood. They are shaped by the social and cultural milieu in which you exist: regardless of whether your relationship to that milieu is violent or not, it is still shaping you, including your desires too. Thinking about queerness completely divorced from society, on an entirely individual level, doesn't really make sense right?

The problem is my awareness of the the way that the world will interpret me.

Absolutely, and that's the other end of this problem. The world is decoding your appearance, sorting it into boxes, and then meting out punishments and rewards. This is one way in which it (crudely) influences desire/performance, and for us trans and queer folks that is basically the most crucial and immediate threat. However, as I pointed out above, it also has much more subtle/insidious ways of predetermining the paths on which we walk.

If you find it useful to consider these other means by which society coerces desire, you should use them. If not, that's fine too. It's up to you, really-- I'm not trying to tell you how to think, merely trying to help interpret a vague comment made by someone else, and elaborating on why some of us might find these ideas useful to us as we parse out how to live happily/fulfilled.

<3

4

Leve wrote

Well, if we want to get into the weeds about this there's some give and take on this point. Your desires don't spring from nowhere, or from an essentialized conception of selfhood. They are shaped by the social and cultural milieu in which you exist: regardless of whether your relationship to that milieu is violent or not, it is still shaping you, including your desires too. Thinking about queerness completely divorced from society, on an entirely individual level, doesn't really make sense right?

I assure you I understand this line of thought completely. At the end of the day I have to put on clothes when I go outside. I assume you're not suggesting I deconstruct my desire for 'queer' clothing to the point of wanting to look cishet just to go outside.

I think this also responds to your second section.

7

celebratedrecluse wrote

I assume you're not suggesting I deconstruct my desire for 'queer' clothing to the point of wanting to look cishet just to go outside.

No, definitely not. I'm suggesting you deconstruct your fucks about what people think about your style/dress, as you asked for help doing. my discussion of queerness as fundamentally social is merely one avenue you might consider taking, but again if it's not helping you then I encourage you to discard it.

Another avenue you can take, which I suspect you may find more helpful, is to deconstruct conceptions of safety/security. For many trans people, myself included, oppression can be enforced by the perceived threat of violence/marginalization, which can for many of us be greater than the actual consequences we face. For example, a concept which can help visualize this is the Panopticon, which if you haven't heard of you can easily find articles about online. In this way, despite what people might think, you can focus instead on what they can do to us, which in many cases isn't actually as massive and overbearing as dominant society would like us to think. Sure, there are queerphobic structural factors, microaggressions, even hate crimes-- but a major way in which these things operate on the queer community is by inspiring fear, rather than directly impugning consequences on us. It's a sort of "terrorism", a way of controlling people through hypotheticals and fear, although I detest that word intensely for the racist/nationalist bigotry and incredible irony that it is politically situated in.

So, by remembering that there are indeed limits to the authoritarianism of cishet culture/society, and proving to yourself in small steps of visibility/performativity that this tactic of fear is indeed operating on you, you can proceed to discard this fear bit by bit, and take incrementally larger steps of performativity that work up to the level of performativity that makes you feel in equilibrium with your internal gender/sexual identity.

Again, there are a lot of ways to approach this, and if this approach does not work for you there are others you can use.

5

Leve wrote

Aye, so far as I can tell I'm doing both of these already as well as I can. I wish there was more content on how to, because small steps are pretty exhausting and also the smallest steps available to me are still pretty big. I'm basically at the point where I look a bit queer but the next step will mean I look a lot queer.

5

celebratedrecluse wrote

Honestly, if you ask me a lot of this stuff is just not well communicated or assisted via the internet. What helped me ultimately is having a queer trans community IRL. do you have folks in your life who can be your support system, or spaces in which you can cohabitate with them? (not live together necessarily, just sharing space together)

5

Leve wrote

Working on it. I guess I do, I just struggle to ask people for help in the world.

6

celebratedrecluse wrote

That's really valid. It took me forever to reach out and then to find my peoples...so many barriers to doing so, but so worth it. I wish you all the best, PM me anytime

2

kore wrote

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here. Like celebratedrecluse's caveat, I don't deny that affirming clothing can help a person feel better.

I'm not wearing the clothes because they're queer or to participate in some predefined queer aesthetic, I'm wearing the clothes because I want to.

Prove it! How do you know your desire isn't socially constructed?

5

bloodrose wrote

I wish I had a good answer for you. I am a cis woman who prefers to dress in menswear, looking as much like a man as I can pull off. I had a brief, i dunno, 6 months in which I purposely dressed the way I wanted to at work. I felt confident as fuck. I got so much good work done. I really felt like I was making a good impression on the men at work, too. Like I was getting their respect. However, my boss, a cis woman who is very affected by internalized misogyny made fun of my clothing every single day. When she said she was going to promote me, she demanded I change my attire. So, I had a good run at it, but they put me back in the box. :(

4

trashcan wrote

I wish I could help. I struggle with this, too. I've found a few things I'm comfortable wearing out, but getting dressed still often feels like a compromise is or putting on a disguise. I'd also love to be able to like paint my nails without worrying about getting harassed at work about it.

2

Leve wrote

My best luck has been just when I've been with other queer friends who have encouraged me to do it in the moment; otherwise I generally don't.

3

ConquestOfToast wrote

Figure out what makes you confident. Doesn't matter what you wear, people are going to respond to your confidence first in those spaces, everywhere else, people aren't going to give a shit what you wear if you can stare daggers before they even think of fucking with you.

-2

anony wrote

sorry to offer toxic advice but becoming very skinny has helped me be able to feel good about myself most of the time.

there's something about it that confers a social power that imo goes beyond some kind of false western beauty standard. 99% of all humans who ever lived were skinny by modern standards. so by becoming thin I take on my body as it would have existed outside the empire.

5

celebratedrecluse wrote

99% of all humans who ever lived were skinny by modern standards.

This is fundamentally not true, having low body fat in the way of most cis woman models was a death sentence in most social circumstances.

so by becoming thin I take on my body as it would have existed outside the empire.

this is so backwards...you are justifying your preconcieved notions of desirable body images by deeming them "outside the empire", when they are really given to you by the colonial superstructure.

-1

anony wrote

i'm talking about not being fat.

all over the world- today- the average person has a bmi of like.. ~ 23

and I am one of them.

I'm able to do things physically that I was unable to even being slightly overweight.

there are actual advantages to being thin that are not just propaganda.

5

celebratedrecluse wrote

becoming very skinny has helped me

i'm talking about not being fat.

it seems the goalposts are moving.

-2

anony wrote

with this comment the implicit accusation that I'm an infiltrator and not a trans woman who's barely making it. if you want I'll carve a star into my thigh if you'll believe my lived experience is real + valid.

sorry if that goes way too far with it.

personally I like to be "very skinny" and being that way gave me an ego boost that I needed. right now I'm "not fat" because it's colod outside. not everything a person says is meant to be ploy moving the gaolposts.

forget posts

my body is moving on its own.

5

celebratedrecluse wrote

with this comment the implicit accusation that I'm an infiltrator and not a trans woman who's barely making it.

what the fuck? I did not insinuate anything like this, and that is grossly insulting to me as part of your community. This is bordering on gaslighting type behavior.

It is readily apparent that you are-- in the context of this discussion-- conflating "not fat" and "very skinny", and then disingenuously using this elision to discredit my critique of your toxic points of view. With this latest reply, you are further attempting to shield yourself from accountability by claiming that someone (me) who is pointing out your behavior is merely being transphobic, belittling my point of view and the concept of transphobia in the process.

-1

anony wrote

I already replied to you but as I said. you accused my of moving the goalposts when I'm fact my own body is going to those different weights within a year or so.

therefore i accuse thee

of being mad at me for daring to say that I'm happier at a 'skinnier' weight

this "opinion" (actually just my lived exp)

goes against the modern feminist talking points and therefore is completely invalid

and you say gaslight? I'm actually mad at that one as I've experienced that in real life.

I'm not going away. I'm the ghost of feminism past. your worst nightmare. a fellow comrade who disagres with the establishment and is smart enough to challenge it.

4

amongstclouds wrote

I'm 100% sure you're not here in good faith.

-4

anony wrote

well you're 100% wrong then

I'm just fucked up beyond yalls belief of what is even possible

I'll literally give myself a radfem tattoo and pm it to yo

sorry I think I need to throw my phone in one of the two rivers ... I can't take this it anymore.

5

GaldraChevaliere moderator wrote

Okay, that's enough of this. You're not talking about what we 'believe is even possible', you're pushing your own conception of your body on others in a seriously uncool way.

You're fully allowed to do as you will with your own body, literally nobody here is denying that. What works for your body works for your body, but it's a joke to pretend that telling people to just get skinny and conform to cisheteronormative standards to be valid is some kind of hot feminist take. Being called out for that isn't a 'flame war' and your idea of thinness being a fixed ideal through history is literally disproven looking at any renaissance era painting of a woman.

If you're concerned for OP, then cut the crap.

2

amongstclouds wrote (edited )

Okay, make sure to take your fatphobia with you.

Sorry, I mean your worship of NORMATIVITY.

4

celebratedrecluse wrote

you accused my of moving the goalposts when I'm fact my own body is going to those different weights within a year or so.

Are you incapable of understanding that there is a difference between your body and a forum thread? This is why I am saying you are being disingenuous. In the context of our discussion, you have moved the goalposts. When I identified this, you retaliated by accusing me of being transphobic, which had nothing to do with what we were talking about. It's like you are assuming we are discussing your body, when we are in fact having a discussion about your claims that:

99% of people [in human history] were skinny by today's standards

Which I continue to hold is just not true, and which you continue to refuse to even try to defend. Instead, you start talking about contemporary average BMI, providing no source even, and insisting that I am...invalidating your trans identity? By questioning your viewpoint on history?

But if that were the case, you are also questioning my trans identity by disputing my understanding of history. OMG how dare you call me an infiltrator!!!1

The truth is, that is something you pulled out of thin air to intimidate me and others from engaging in a discussion of your views.

I'm not going away. I'm the ghost of feminism past. your worst nightmare. a fellow comrade who disagres with the establishment and is smart enough to challenge it.

fatphobia is normative...especially within the queer community, frankly. This is why I am challenging your assertion of the "naturalness" of being thin.

"disagre" all you want, it doesn't make you an ideological snowflake. I think it's really telling that you're more interested in guessing my age than engaging with my ideas.

-2

anony wrote (edited )

ok so let's start over. when I lost weight and s worked on my appearance, I was suddenly I happy again and was even able to try and transition.

am I supposed to never talk about my own life and what I did in order to not even really survive.

honestly I'll probably be dead I a few years.

you college kids are so.... bougie🤣

just pm me we've already started a fucking flame war this is terrible for OP

4

celebratedrecluse wrote

ok so let's start over. when I lost weight and s worked on my appearance, I was suddenly I happy again and was even able to try and transition.

I am genuinely really happy for you! That's great, and very valid.

am I supposed to never talk about my own life and what I did in order to not even really survive.

No, you totally should! However, if you start making unjustified claims about human history, which reinforce toxic social standards which are damaging to my sisters, I will challenge those views...and if you start insinuating that I am transphobic because of this challenge, I'm going to take the gloves off because what you're saying is damaging to women, especially trans women like me.

honestly I'll probably be dead I a few years.

:(

I disagree with you, and I'm annoyed by your rhetoric, but I don't want you to fucking die

you college kids are so.... bougie🤣

uh...challenging your stated point of view on history is not bougie, but I'm sure you aren't at all grasping for straws here...

just pm me we've already started a fucking flame war this is terrible for OP

I have no desire to talk to you further, this discussion is for the benefit of people ITT who should know that fatphobia is 1) distinct from having positive personal experiences of thinness and 2) is not historically grounded as you claimed.

-4

anony wrote

btw OP replied to me earlier and I also replied to that with even more problematic stuff. just bein helpful.

I don't say stuff like that expecting to be met with no resistance.... however I am forreal a comrade. simply one who believes their own stuff and marches tk their own beat. I was a 3rd wave feminist way before it was "cool". do you remember that? I'm legit asking because things have changed a lot from back then and it also gives alot of insight into your age. my point is that I believe in feminist ideology because it is what is actually correct. I don't believe in whatever the hive mind says is true.

4

Leve wrote

I suspect that is ok for some people; realistically I am fine with body and not really sure how changing it would help.

-4

anony wrote

the reason I suggested this js because of your statement about clothes and affordibility. once you're under certain skinnyness level then suddenly every single thing in r thrift shop fits and you can kinda run it etc.

it's significantly harder and more expensive to look "cool" if you're chubby. this is actually a fact because "cool" is not something that is able to be defined through academia or activism. its an ephemeral thing that's part culture, part art, part performance, part bullshit. asthetic.
what do your bones look like? it's a hearkening to death.