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celebratedrecluse wrote

I have been watching the chapo.chat community, one of the federated instances, from afar since they ragequit our sub here and it appears one of their admins stepped down temporarily due to sexual harassment allegations that sound similar to what happened with v@ush. There has been some drama in those posts, more than half the comments are removed and the only ones that remain are flattering the moderators and other admins for "handling things so well"

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ziq wrote

tankies are real experts at sweeping sexual abuse under the rug, it goes with the territory since the party can do no wrong and anyone who says otherwise must be purged

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celebratedrecluse wrote

while not surprising entirely, it still gives me this deeply crestfallen feeling in my stomach to see "leftist" forums filled with abuse apologia talking points.

this sort of phenomenon is a deep indicator of...where we're all at.

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ziq wrote

I mean these leftists also think concentration camps are good if China builds them. They spend all day justifying abuse. Americans are fucked up.

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southerntofu wrote

thanks for the explanation i always found a creepy vibe to this whole chapo thing so i never really got close but i had no clue it was so fucked up

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celebratedrecluse wrote

It was the biggest pan-left space online, and when it shuttered the people who tried to enter into it most successfully and split off an alternative were people with a desire to build mass movement. the most determined, can sometimes overlook snakes in their midst.

There was also a culture of class reduction that caused even more strife. Without TC69's presence at the top to legitimate the project, it would have buckled long ago over the bulk of the userbase losing faith in the admins and moderators due to casual prejudice worming its way up on the board.

They even had to remove downvotes to avoid toxic conversations from being incentivized...this is usually a bad sign.

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southerntofu wrote

There was also a culture of class reduction that caused even more strife.

Yea i felt that when just overlooking their communities. I felt like it was some sort of Internet cult full of white male internet boys completely insensitive to any other kind of life.

They even had to remove downvotes to avoid toxic conversations from being incentivized...this is usually a bad sign.

Sorry i don't think i understand that?

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celebratedrecluse wrote

instead of being able to trust the userbase to judiciously use downvotes rather than obsessively bully each other into sharing the same opinions, they had to remove the downvote functionality from chapo.chat to prevent flame wars as there was no other alternative.

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southerntofu wrote

I see. I did not understand that from your original phrasing. Thanks for clarifying :)

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GlangSnorrisson wrote

Wasn’t the sexual misconduct thing spotted months ago? I distinctly remember it being mentioned here anyway.

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ziq wrote (edited )

Yeah I remember one of their admins was soliciting nudes from kids and they were banning anyone that talked about it for 'wrecking'.

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GlangSnorrisson wrote (edited )

Wtf so fucked up.

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ziq wrote (edited )

their admins made a nsfw selfie room on their discord to encourage ppl (kids) to post nudes there. those people are sketchy af so it's not surprising to see another of their admins has been caught being a sex pest

edit: looks like they banned the latest victim and wiped all her posts, again calling her a 'wrecker', after she gave personal info about the admin to prove her story

i guess wrecker just means 'abused by dear leader' in chapotalk

the left is fucking gross, they spend all their time cancelling everyone but themselves

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GlangSnorrisson wrote

Gross. I hope those kids get actual help and support.

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mima wrote

Damn, nevermind. I'm never going there, even if they fix their CSS. Pedophiles don't deserve to live.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

really? Out of curiosity, do you have the pemalinks?

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Hibiscus_Syrup wrote (edited )

dgaf and would rather we didn't even talk about them around here

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syster OP wrote

I guess the point of my question is not centered about the software, but that it's a plattform for and from tankies. While they are the only federated reddit alike platform, they have it easy to attract new folks.

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ziq wrote

you should send me 40k to my patreon so i can use it to fund the destruction of lemmy

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syster OP wrote

reason lemmy is getting day by day more reach (and money), is them having an understandings of the benefits federation brings with. Whatever your opinion about federation is, it is what many people are looking for and will support. (even many anarchist start to support lemmy for this particular reason.) I believe it would be beneficial if you would reevaluate your analysis about federation.

btw I replied to your comment at What is your opinion about bringing federation to raddle/postmill? within a somewhat to lengthy text. So instead of a comment, it became the "original post"

In this moment, lemmy holds monopoly on federated reddit alike platform. No zine will take this away from them, but building an alternative so they loose this monopoly. You, /u/emma and others need cash for doing that? The same funds that paid lemmy, would probably also pay you.

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emma wrote

I really need you to go back and read my previous post, and this time pay extra attention to the "not motivated to make it happen" part. Also read this.

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syster OP wrote

I did read it carefully, it's just that I interpreted "I'm not sure what problems federation would solve." as being interested to read a perspective that tries to catch up a bit on that.

My calls for help with Postmill consistently go unanswered. People who promise to help out never get in touch with me again.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Up until now, I've done my utmost to try and meet peoples' wishes, but in the long run it's alienating to keep giving and never receiving anything in return.

I just want to remind you, that me and /u/southerntofu can offer to write grand requests. I don't know if that would be something to help you out. Reminder: lemmy received around 40k through a single grand.

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southerntofu wrote

can offer to write grand requests

Well said like this it sounds like it was my central point, but it's not. The only reason i brought it up is because finances was brought up twice in the topic. Like i said, it's not my personal plan to try and get money from institutions for building things.

It's more like if some folks around here want to develop some really innovative features and they're stuck with a stupid dayjob preventing them from doing anarchist programming/sysadmin, then it is technically possible to apply for some funds, in which case i'm happy to dedicate a day or two of my life to help write a grant application. Which does not solve the "what do we want to do", "who's gonna do it", and "do we really want to beg huge orgs for money" questions.

But then as emma brought it up, it appears the problem is mostly that she is alone developing postmill and the calls to contributions have gone unanswered. So two things:

  • /u/syster it appears neither me nor /u/emma have the time/motivation to implement federation for raddle, but i'm happy to "mentor" you to try and implement it (a PoC is not really hard, getting the details right is)
  • we could advertise on raddle homepage a call to contributors/maintainers ; personally i can't say i have a lot of time (already involved with many projects) but i'd be glad to help every now and then with documentation or reviewing code and i definitely can free some time for 1-7 days hackathons to work on specific improvements
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syster OP wrote

Thanks /u/southerntofu for this kind offer. While I'm all new here, I feel it would be appropriate for me to take more time evaluating their concerns and listen and learn more from their experience running this sweet community. I don't want to be this kind of person that just jumps into the room and says: "I don't know what you're doing, but I know it better."

Even so I'm sure I probably appeared just like that. :-p

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ziq wrote

Federation is a shallow fad that rests on the flawed concept of uniting opposing groups in a naive and misguided attempt to reach critical mass.

Letting fascists and tankies exploit our labour and content on other instances where we have no control over our labour / content or any say in how our work is used and abused is not something an anarchist is going to get behind.

If I make a post here and people federating it on hitlerdoodle.me get to

a) profit from it by monetizing my work against my will

b) fill the replies with slurs and associate me and my content with hate, while encouraging their base to harass me

c) grow their site and its reach using my content, thus making me culpable for the rise of fascism

This isn't going to do me or anarchy any favors.

Giving shifty randos the ability to strip away all the anti-oppression, pro-privacy, anti-monetization and anti-tracking safeguards raddle promises its users by pushing our content and our accounts to their servers with completely different terms of services and privacy policies does nothing but fuck our users over. They never consented to their content being pushed to other platforms they have no involvement with.

Furthermore you're making the common mistake of assuming growth is always desirable. It's not. Raddle is small because we refuse to compromise our ethics. Attaining some kind of perverse unity with tankies and other fascists because you think it's too difficult to register accounts on different websites is ridic.

It's really not a bad thing that multiple disconnected ecosystems exist. We don't need to become a monolith to be valued. We're valuable just the way we are. Small, isolated but uncompromising. Completely self-governing and autonomous, with full say in how our content is dispersed.

There's a reason tankies are embracing federation while anarchists advocate for full autonomy. Left unity is a scam.

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ziq wrote

And if this site goes down, so what? Spin up another postmill instance or three. It's not the end of the world.

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syster OP wrote

Furthermore you're making the common mistake of assuming growth is always desirable.

No I don't. I prefer to not compromize values over growth.

Raddle is small because we refuse to compromise our ethics.

I believe that is one among many reason. I believe the following is not part of your ethics you refuse to compromise:

  • language barrier
  • other cultural barrier caused by european-centric anarchism (I don't know if that's the case, I'm way to new here to have an opinion on that)
  • no option to easily have a federated conversation between mutual postmil instances
  • anarchist appealing to lemmy for the reason it is more feature rich when it comes to federation
  • ...and more

We don't need to become a monolith to be valued. We're valuable just the way we are.

100% agree with you. I like raddle! But I still strongly disagree with your position of federation.

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ziq wrote (edited )

language barrier

Raddle supports multiple languages. I did the Greek translation myself.

cultural barrier caused by european-centric anarchism

Raddle isn't european centric, read the wiki.

federated conversatio

We have federated conversations with anarchistnews and reddit and other sites all the time.

https://raddle.me/f/AskRaddle/126727/how-do-you-define-anarchism

https://raddle.me/f/antiwork/125093/anarchists-how-do-you-feel-about-r-antiwork

anarchist appealing to lemmy

Fuck them if their priorities are bullshit.

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syster OP wrote

language barrier

Raddle supports multiple languages. I did the Greek translation myself.

hmm, I changed the language settings. It changed only the UI. I still see only posts in english. Am I missing something?

federated conversatio

We have federated conversations with anarchistnews and reddit and other sites all the time.

Oh, what? That sounds great! Where can I learn more about that?

anarchist appealing to lemmy

Fuck them if their priorities are bullshit.

Well I strongly disagree with them on that aspect, but I won't cancel them for this decision. I neither cancel those anarchists using facebook and twitter.

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Can_Not wrote

Separate comment for separate inquiry:

Despite being a skeptic of federation myself, I at least thought it would be cool if (Lemmy and/or Postmill) supported "Login with your Mastodon account" with the ability to have vouched Mastodon instances and blocked Mastodon instances. Otherwise, I feel like Postmill's "host your own website" is probably enough federation, plus maybe opensource apps for android/iOS that connect to any Postmill.

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Can_Not wrote

anarchist appealing to lemmy for the reason it is more feature rich when it comes to federation

what federation features does lemmy actually have? I remember, at least a year ago if not earlier, the situation was something like "don't worry federation fans, I'm going to order the pizza later" which is reasonable as an early prototype.

What is the end goals and theory behind Lemmy's federation goals? I'd like to read up on that, just to be sure I fully understand the Lemmy vs Postmill pros/cons.

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syster OP wrote

Federation is a shallow fad that rests on the flawed concept of uniting opposing groups in a naive and misguided attempt to reach critical mass.

That's using a definition of federation that I do not use when I speak about federation. I do not understand what definition of federation you use, so your sentence remains true. Federation for me, is the concept of interconnected but decentralized systems/communities that have agreed on one or a variety of concepts to establish connection between each other.

If I organize in the street with an affinity group, I can be part of a wider anarchist platform working together as mutals. Being autonomous is not equal to opposing other autonomous groups. There can be a street medic team, there can be a food not bombs squat, there can be a media team, there can be...etc. They made some agreements prior to taking the streets, how to have a functional communication infrastructure if one group wants to reach the others.

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ziq wrote

Ok. Problem solved then. Raddle is already federated with other anarchist networks. We work with all the sites listed in the f/anarchism sidebar. Every time we link to them and they link to us, every time we work together on a project or crosspost essays on each other's sites, we're federating.

Since raddle uses federated technology aka hyperlinks, I'll update the wiki to let everyone know we're federated like lemmy (and without the horribly slow, buggy and unsecure interface)

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syster OP wrote

Yes, that is also federation, and indeed there should be more visibility that such an approach is also a method of building a federated communication structure.

rss feed reader , blogs and hyperlinks are great!! They have some limitiation, that is why some develope open standards that are more capable of this social media thingy.

There is a reason why so many anarchists still use twitter. You could argue they aren't anarchists, but that's obviously not the case.

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syster OP wrote (edited )

Letting fascists and tankies exploit our labour and content on other instances

There is nothing stopping anyone to use whatever content produced here, to share it on let's say lemmy.ml or this chapo thiny. They could even automate this without you having any control over it. btw: there's a federated platform called hubzilla that can actually prevent that, by having the option to grant visibility only to a group of users that are part of a specific forum. You're not part of the forum, you won't see anything. I'm not saying this is an option for raddle, I'm just saying that it has nothing to do with federation, at least for what I understand what federation is.

If I make a post here and people federating it on hitlerdoodle.me get to

Why would you want to federate with hitlerdoodle? You don't have to if you don't want. There's permission control for that.

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Hibiscus_Syrup wrote

My answer is the same. Federation means nothing to me - I'm not interested in new folks generally, but rather cultivating a space of affinity.

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ziq wrote

hot garbage

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syster OP wrote

finaly a reply I agree with! :-)

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syster OP wrote

btw: they received around 45.000$ from NLfund to bring federation to their network (beside some other changes) That funding could have also went to Postmill.

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ziq wrote

i kno, i'm still bitter af

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southerntofu wrote

Not sure if sarcasm? Personally i don't intend to benefit public grants. But if that's your thing and you're really bitter about so much money going to libs/tankies, i'm happy to help write/review grant applications for anarchist developers.

There's quite a bunch of public/private funds we can apply to as long as we have a clear project and roadmap. Some interesting things we could develop that could obviously benefit grants:

  • a generic email->HTTP gateway (using JSON-LD/XML/Swagger schemas), with protocol-specific shorthands (eg. send a mail to [email protected] to post a comment directly here)
  • a consensus-building algorithm for self-organized moderation
  • a federated login system with OpenID Connect, SAML, XMPP (and other) authentication backends (so i could reuse an existing account of mine instead of creating new credentials here)
  • federation with other link aggregators? :P :P :P
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syster OP wrote

If people believe that would help the project, I'm up to help /u/southerntofu helping you to get grant applications for anarchist developers.

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CircleA wrote

Lemmy was literally made to spite postmill. I forget the details, but the tankie that made it asked a rude question on postmill's git, didn't like the reply he got, so started his own project even though he can barely code.

Maybe you can find it somewhere:

https://raddle.me/search?q=lemmy

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ziq wrote (edited )

Lmao this was gold

I saw they also banned the guy from r/communism a few months ago (he was whining about it in his reddit post history), somehow he was too fash even for them.

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southerntofu wrote

Found from following the posts around here (not sure which anymore). That really made my day! When asked "What's so bad about being naked in a jungle with no rules?", the tankie replied:

You can't work in a unionized factory for starters. Without rules, what's the point in even having a vanguard?

I mean if we had tried to make a parody it wouldn't have been as good lol

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southerntofu wrote (edited )

<sarcasm>Oh shit now everybody can see i've been practicing my "entryism" skills</sarcasm>

More seriously i've been having serious debates with folks on there. There seems to be a growing community with a number of people interested in anarchism though these people may not be the historic lemmy clique.

More context: Lemmy is part of the broader fediverse which already has millions of users, including quite a few anarchist, queer and otherwise militant instances. So the fact is it's potentially drawing a lot of people, including a lot of really cool people from Mastodon/Peertube ecosystem.

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mima wrote

If they fix their coding, I'd consider taking a look. Right now their CSS breaks on Pale Moon.

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syster OP wrote

you've no issue that it's being developed by tankies?

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mima wrote

I only care about how the software was developed, not who develops it. If the instance is full of tankies (that is, those who uncritically support current imperialist and capitalist China), then I'd stay away from them and just continue using Raddle.

Right now, I'm not confident about the competence of those who are developing the software behind lemmy, considering that they are refusing to at least provide a fallback for browsers not supporting their weird CSS.

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syster OP wrote

I only care about how the software was developed, not who develops it.

Why that? Afterall lemmy isn't just a software, but a social network with tankies on top of the hierarchy.

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mima wrote (edited )

Isn't the purpose of federation to prevent that sort of thing? If tankies dominate the social network, then they have failed in developing a federated network in the first place.

If your concern is that tankies will dictate the coding of the back-end of the network, then you can fork it, since it's free software. Anyone can fork Postmill too and make it more friendly to fascists (I hope nobody does that).

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syster OP wrote

Isn't the purpose of federation to prevent that sort of thing?

At least not how I understand federation. It can be used to prevent that, and it can be used to promote it. You can have a network of federated communities that organize to advocate for flat-earth theories, and you can have a network of federated communities that organize to adovate for better education. Nazis can also organize themselves in federated cells.

then they have failed in developing a federated network in the first place.

No, they have build a federated network. They have a protocol that allows different communities to federate with each other and they have a whitelist that only allows federation with their comrades/instances they trust.

If your concern is that tankies will dictate the coding of the back-end of the network, then you can fork it,

And then what? I don't have the time nor the skills to maintain it. "Just fork it" is an advice that might come from a very privileged position.

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mima wrote (edited )

They have a protocol that allows different communities to federate with each other and they have a whitelist that only allows federation with their comrades/instances they trust.

Wait, I think that's not how that works. Communities can follow and unfollow each other, but they can't "defederate". Federation should allow any instance to access every content and be able to send messages to every instance in the network (like email). Other instances can of course ignore messages from another instance, just like how we send spam to another folder.

I don't have the time nor the skills to maintain it.

Of course. I only said you can fork it, not you should fork it. If the userbase is dissatisfied with the direction the code is heading for, someone will surely fork it, or create an alternative from scratch (like what emma and co. did).

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syster OP wrote

Of course. I only said you can fork it, not you should fork it.

I know. But being able to fork is useless if there's no one able to maintain the fork. I have the permission to do it, but that does not automatically translate to: being able to do so. I believe it is important to make this distinction explicitly visible.

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yam wrote

Pale Moon devs throwing a tantrum. Their insistence on static linking is problematic to say the least.

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southerntofu wrote

Wow thanks for enlightening me pale moon is definitely a no-go for me now :)

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mima wrote (edited )

Pale Moon doesn't do static linking (in fact I think they'd vehemently oppose anyone doing that), they only bundle selected versions of libraries (like jemalloc) in their code. They argue that using the system-provided jemalloc would lead to memory leaks and instability. You can see more on why they don't use system libraries here.

I agree that Tobin was a bit too harsh on that github issue, but that doesn't excuse the behaviour of the OpenBSD people either. They could've just used a unofficial branding if they insist on using system libs, but they didn't, and they actually look more like throwing a tantrum by removing Pale Moon completely from their ports.

Btw, an official FreeBSD port is currently being worked on right now.

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