How Zionism helped the Nazis perpetrate the Holocaustkano OP wrote
Reply to comment by cyb3rd4ndy in How Zionism helped the Nazis perpetrate the Holocaust by kano
to be honest, there's so much relationships and collaborations and similarities and parallels between the white supremacists and zionists that its hard for me to take this comment seriously.
Even Theodor Herzl was talking about bringin European values to the 'savages' or 'barbarians' or whatever during the height of European Imperialism. If that's not white supremacy then idk what is.
cyb3rd4ndy wrote (edited )
You should take it seriously because reducing Zionism to White Supremacy erases what is specific about White Supremacy and Zionism. Besides that, it isn't just Europeans or White nationalists that adopt supremacist ideologies, so similarities and parallels between White Nationalists, Zionists, and European colonizers are also shared by other nationalists that aren't White, nor European. Do you think there is something special about the elitism of Zionist, White, or European nationalists? Have you seen the way other nationalists talk about indigenous tribes in the regions they claim are theirs?
Also, just to complicate this more, a lot of American-German Jews had a supremacist attitude towards migrant Russian Jews. Both European, both with white skin. They considered the Russian Jewish immigrants to be "ghetto Jews" with uncivilized characteristics.
What is the point of comparing Zionists with White Supremacists? As opposed to any other sort of nationalist? Why is that a useful rhetorical point? Why is it useful to emphasize Jewish "whiteness" when it comes to Zionism? If you argue that Zionist Jews are White because they come from Europe, doesn't that logic apply to non-Zionist Jews? And if you make that case, then you are basically calling all Ashkenazim "white", which I find super problematic, considering how that category of whiteness has been often built against Jews.
kin wrote (edited )
Edit: maybe my point is that even in Israel, there are cases for racial discrimination and colorism if you consider that Mizrahi Jews are discriminate against and Ethiopian Jews are troublesome migrants even if they are Jews. Imo there are lots of overlapping in Zionism and whiteness, but again I am not making a claim that Zionism is white supremacy. And even in Europe you can see an hierarchy in the popular consciousness about who are more white, and usually the more North you go more white you are.
cyb3rd4ndy wrote (edited )
Mizrahi, Ethiopian, and other Jews of Color are also Zionists!
It’s not like the Ashkenazim tricked the rest of the Jews into Zionism.
From this article: https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/325768/how-anti-zionists-manipulate-mizrahi-narratives/
“The mainstream Mizrahi perspective is a Zionist one. It is true that, as with any community, Mizrahim are not a monolith — but as Hen Mazzig writes in his article for JNS, “Mizrahi activism is not exclusively a pro-Israel movement, but it acknowledges that the safety of the majority of Mizrahi Jews is reliant on the existence of the Jewish state where we found refuge.” Today, Mizrahim make up 45% of Israel’s population, making us the largest Jewish group in the country over Ashkenazim, who make up 32%. Much of Mizrahi culture has become synonymous with Israeli culture at large — from listening to Eyal Golan to eating sabich on Shabbat. To imply that 45% of Israel’s population is rooting for its destruction is an unbelievable falsity.”
I assume you’re aware that colorism exists in non-White and non-European contexts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_based_on_skin_color
In general, I think we should be careful not to project social constructs developed and maintained in one place onto other places. Whiteness is one of those constructs. Whiteness does include color as part of its criteria, but it is so much more than that. Even in Europe, whiteness isn’t as primary as it is in the United States.
kin wrote
I am aware of all that, that's why theres still migrants from Africa and middle east to Palestine/Israel.
And yes colorism is somewhat widespread and I suspect is very much linked with colonialism. And if you want to complicate things we can discuss ( not really) the Han "supremacy" in china.
Like I said to 🖤 🦡 (black badger), I guess we are splitting a hair here. Maybe there is some mistakes in the arguments but at the end of the day the task is simple despite of the complicate the situation is.
cyb3rd4ndy wrote (edited )
What do you mean the task is simple?
It isn't simple for me!
I'm a Jew that lives in the United States, the 2nd largest population of Jews in the world after Israel. The United States is absolutely a colonial state, based on white supremacy, that still persecutes the remaining indigenous population. I also live in Arizona, where a lot of that persecution happens. One of the things that makes it easier to be an anarchist here is that there is a sizable indigenous anarchist community. I don't know what Palestinian anarchists there are and I have asked numerous people.
Anyway, if I want to "decolonize" then what exactly does that look like? What would be the basis of my non-colonial existence if it isn't in Israel? See the problem? It isn't splitting hairs to argue about whether or not Jews are colonizers of Palestine, are white, etc. It's fundamental to how we think about who has a claim to live in a region and what way of living there is right.
kin wrote
Anarchy is simple in theory, is just get rid of state and any oppression, hierarchy or any other hidrance in the path for freedom.
I said the other day, I don't think overcomplicating anarchism is valuable. Overanalyzing or going too phylosophical {or metaphysical} at the end is just serving for the individual engaging in it. We® said many times, we don't have a political program, we don't have demands, no political parties or unions, no flags no colors (...) etc
Maybe, if we want to engage in the building side we sure need to go deep in the analysis, but then just if you believe it's possible
kin wrote
Sorry, I don't want or wanted to make this a personal issue.
I think we (or I for that matter) mixed a couple of questions here. My knowledge is totally disconnected of the issue as many are. I wonder 8f we have any Israelis here tho. I don't want you to feel unheard or unpreciatted here, my main point is just to make clear that I find Zionism to be a very fucked up ideology, not historicallly but currently in the affairs today. If I was more willing to go to the bottom of this I would have engaged in a better debate here. In the other hand I can't dismiss all the reports and accounts telling me what is happening in Israel bc of Zionism and their political stablisjment.
Other thing is that I don't think you are involved in Zionism or Israel policies just for being a Jewish american. (..) I think the Israelis do engage in colonialism but I am not sure to say that the whole migration happened like this. And I do think whiteness is something at play in Zionism (let's not forget that this is not limited to Israel or Jewish people, look the alt-right and many evangelical Christian in whole world)
I will leave this here bc I was starting to use liberal talking points. But I think we started speaking from different places willing to reach a common point that I guess will not happening here/now.
cyb3rd4ndy wrote (edited )
Ok, thanks - but I'm using myself as an example for how this becomes complicated... not just to express that I have a personal stake in the matter.
As an anarchist, that is, someone with a complicated theory about why I want anarchy and how to achieve anarchy, I'm opposed to all forms of nationalism. That includes the nationalism that created the United States, the nationalism that created the State of Israel, etc. but it also includes the other nationalisms in the Middle-East and Islamism. So as an anarchist, Jewish or not, that means I don't give nationalism a free pass just because it is the nationalism of an oppressed group of people. Palestinian nationalism doesn't get a free pass. Nor does Islamist nationalism. Not Zionism, not ISIS, not Fatah, not the PLO, not Hamas. So who exactly, as an anarchist, am I in solidarity with? Who am I an ally to, or an accomplice with? It isn't any generic ethnic, religious, racial, tribal, or national group. It is with others who are anarchists or at least whose goals aren't fundamentally against my own goals.
Now, as someone against colonization, that also means I aim at some kind of decolonization. That seems to be the logical conclusion. But what does decolonization look like if you are a diaspora Jew? Well, if the Left, anti-Zionists, etc. start calling you "white" and they deny that you are actually from a people indigenous to the place you're from, then what are you left to do? There is some ways that Jews have become white, but the way that this is used in anti-Zionist discourse is to deny that Ashkenazim are also indigenous to Palestine/Eretz Yisrael. Accepting the status of whiteness in the United States and in some European countries, to whatever extent that has happened, doesn't disqualify Jews from their claim to descend from people in Israel. So anyway, it's a real question what relationship with colonization is. Are American Jews participating in settler-colonialism more than Israeli Jews? That's the question. American Jews have no claim to indigenous ancestry in America, but they do in Israel. That's a big problem for how this discourse is framed. If Jews in America are participating in colonization more than Jews in Israel are, then a big piece of the story is missing from the anti-Zionist discourse.
I also think that anarchists in the United States should be paying at least as much attention to what the United States is doing to indigenous people here as it does to what Israel does to Palestinians. Here is one place news can be found about that:
https://www.indigenousaction.org/news/
So oddly enough, as an anarchist this is less infuriating for me than it would be if like most people in the entire world, I was a nationalist. Then I'd have to get into even more weeds when it comes to Israel policy, I'd have to look at international law, I'd have to compare Israel with other nation-states and their practices of colonization/ethnic cleansing/assimilation/etc.
I think that as anarchists, our fundamentals should apply to the United States, to Israel and Palestine, and to other places. Two especially relevant and related situations are Russian and Ukraine, and Turkey, Syria, Rojava. Anarchists should be able to take coherent positions related to all of these situations. Example...
This logic should also apply to Zionism, to Islamism, to Palestinian nationalism.
It should also reflect our solidarity with Rojava against Turkey, against ISIS, and against other nationalists opposed to Rojava.
[deleted] wrote
kin wrote
I want to add something to this convo later, but at this point I am not sure if it makes sense... A lot to untangle..
black_badger wrote
Why not try a complete sentence?
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