GaldraChevaliere wrote
Reply to comment by !deleted2159 in Man who ate raw pig's head at vegan festival stabbed four classmates at school (UK) by An_Old_Big_Tree
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Totally unsurprised that the cishet vegan wants to condescend to me about the needs of a life I've lived and he hasn't. You need the animals, one way or another, the whole reason we domesticated them was because they can do what we can't. You need the yard-birds to get rid of ticks that can make you or your herd sick. You need the goats to keep the grass low to keep snakes at the margins and not where they can be stepped on and hurt or pose a threat to you or your herd. And they are every bit as dependent on you as you become on them, domestic animals are not equipped to survive without us without either dying en masse or destabilizing the environment themselves. The boar population in the US is overwhelmingly composed of wild, feral pigs that eat everything and shit everywhere. Letting more pigs be "liberated" into the environment around them is a ridiculous idea and euthanizing them in mass would be a waste of life and, just as importantly since you're failing to get this, a total waste of meat. Is it any better if they die with nothing eating them just so you can feel good?
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Can't wait for Frenchie to start talking about americentrism, but a massive swath of the midwest and southeast of the US is heavily, heavily reliant on beef, pork and corn as both food and fodder for the former. The infrastructure here is built around the meat industry, and lack of economic and environmental regulations means the subsistence farms here are all struggling just to get by feeding themselves, let alone their communities. Meat is cheap, easy calories and it can be preserved with much less skill or education than jams or preserves can. You can stretch it a lot farther in a meal and use the leftovers in more meals after, but vegans never seem to care about people actually needing to feel full, just getting 'enough' to function. Vegetables here are fucking expensive and I've talked at length about that before, so I'd rather not reinvent the fucking wheel explaining to a vegan yet again that when fresh but low-quality vegetables cost nearly a dollar and a half a pound at a goddamn walmart the average person isn't going to gravitate towards them when meat is cheap, easy and filling. The price exponentially increases if you want anything better, and gardens are tightly controlled both by stringent and class-enforced zoning laws and housing policies and the increasing pollution and stripping of the land. Outside the US, this extends especially to desertified regions that don't have the water to grow vegetables, that have the same issues with colonialism and industry stripping and poisoning the soil and where many communities have become reliant on bush-meat just to get by.
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Again, you miss my point. For one, no, not everyone on raddle is western including a handful of fairly high-profile users. While the two off the top of my head (Tequila and Ziq) choose to eat vegan, they're also possessed of the means to do so and aware of that. Most people aren't, and it's not a pure dichotomy of western-eastern or northern-southern either. In the US and in the UK, most people are very fucking poor, and the land is like I keep telling you, unsuitable for large scale agriculture on a level that'd replace keeping cattle. If we 'got rid' (how??) of all the factory farms and cows, we'd still have to step up agriculture to replace the loss of a food source, and if you have high hopes for how that'll go, you're delusional. The land will be stripped just as hard if not harder, monocultures will still prevail and eventually start another dustbowl, and subsistence farmers will still get their land stolen or be sued into oblivion for accidentally growing someone's proprietary GMO when it drifts into their fields and takes seed. There is no ethical consumption, literally. There is no good option as long as livestocking and agriculture both continue the way they're going and by shifting the blame onto people's personal situations in which they must or choose to eat meat for any plethora of reasons, you're being that liberal asshole insisting the secret to fixing climate change is not using fucking straws.
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I dunno dude, I'm not the one who called them "fringe" in scare quotes in the first place, like they're doing something wrong by using what little autonomy they have to feed their tribes. You specifically brought up powerful first world countries that hunt on an industrial scale as a dodge, don't even try to wriggle out of that. Countries that are incredibly violent to their native populations, no less (Japanese treatment of the Ainu, Scandi treatment of the Sami), and who ironically are themselves largely reliant on hunting and herding at a sustainable level and find themselves in danger because of the restrictions of their hunting grounds by those same fucking countries.
What 50 years? What will grow in 50 years? You call yourself an environmentalist when you think at the current rate of bullshit there's going to be anything but desert succulents and mushrooms that we can actually grow? And like, "those poor cow udders", fucking yikes dude. I already know you care more about looking good and superior than about actual animal's wellbeing, but sure who gives a shit about cultures reliant on hunting to survive or the pain and discomfort animals are in because of the domestication we put them through in the first place? Why alleviate that, if it means maybe drinking some milk or eating some honey? Surely the excess product that they literally do not use is better spent going to waste or choking out the hive. You're fucking french, dude. You're richer than a lot of people.
[deleted] wrote
GaldraChevaliere wrote
Soy's also seriously water intensive and the fodder makes up a significant chunk of the cost of livestocking in the first place. There's no good answer that involves a monoculture or agriculture as it currently stands, and that's the point I keep trying to make while Bird has his head up his ass. Your personal consumption won't change the underlying structures and even if vegans had any structural power to change them, without an understanding of agriculture beyond just meat = bad veggies = good they're only going to put us in a worse situation.
[deleted] wrote
GaldraChevaliere wrote
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I understand what I'm talking about, don't play this game. There has to be a transitional period, but with the vegan all or nothing approach there won't be one because you can't grow enough food in that much time. Not happening overnight doesn't mean anything more than "I don't care about waiting even if it affects others". What gives you the right to determine that fate for them?
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Because it is broken, like you keep making me repeat myself. Being broken doesn't mean it's not the system we're living under right now, it's only the wealthy who get to opt out of it.
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Which in what way helps your point? Brazil's got a whole issue of its own with clearcutting of the rainforest and the cattle and crop barons owning everything in its rural zones. The importation of vegetables to different climactic regions so you can have some variety is part of the problem. Most animal feed is already fodder that'd be wasted. It's chaff and stalks mostly. To feed people the way we do now, which again I keep repeating needs to change, we need to completely overhaul or outright discard agriculture as it currently exists, and a transitional period can't do that fast enough without famine.
Not to be all internet tough girl but this is around the point you'd be losing teeth. Vegans across the board remain embarrassingly smug and self-absorbed. Your entire ideology is built around the judgement of the poor. You do nothing to help the world, you only serve as another drain on it. Acknowledge that.
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