Recent comments in /f/NeuroDiversity

SnowyKnave wrote (edited )

Yeah I hate that. It makes me feel ignored or worse.

It just seems like people are trying to seem friendly/nice rather than helping people.

But also I think its really hard to show meaningful support to someone, particularly over the internet, and I sometimes worry that whatever support Im trying to give to someone sounds fake. Im really not being fake to you if Im being nice to you!

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ActuallyOpposesFascists wrote

Reply to comment by Crown_of_Ice in by __algernon

Why are you literally pressing the "reply" button but are literally not replying at l and instead have literally written a comment that has literally no purpose whatsoever except to insult, abuse, and bully someone (but not even on the basis of what they have actually said)?

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ActuallyOpposesFascists wrote

Reply to by __algernon

No, my two abusive parents are/were abusive directly. Any possible attempt at gaslighting done by the one of them, if it was an attempt (which I never thought of it as being), was or would have been unsuccesful, because it was ALWAYS said in a narcissistic condescending tone. (And also because I am immune to such things in general, but that's not likely relevant here since NO ONE would believe someone who is constantly talking in that tone of voice whenever they want to incorrectly pretend to "correct you".)

Although he did also use the exact same extremely abusive tone of voice to say approximately, "No, stupid person, I never/didn't say mean that, I said/meant this other thing that I didnt actuay say/mean, you stupid person", however, I believe that is due to actual memory loss or lies to self. For example, "I never said that" because he didnt say it this month, and "I didnt mean that" because he doesnt remember the specific conversation or any of the specific conversations of the 20+ times when he did mean that, and he currently has changed his mind about his belief OR he just assumes, incorrectly, that he "wouldnt have" meant that if he had said that. Because he didnt start saying this time of thing until after I was 25 and his most common thing to repeatedly tell me was how much he despises me or anything I think or do. Something that again would directly prevent any possibility of gaslighting if it was the only or most common "opinion about you" that was said to someone.

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ActuallyOpposesFascists wrote

Reply to by __algernon

The thing about autism is that almost every single thing about it that is listed as "true and autistic" is wrong. The only thing about it that "really is true about all autistic people" is general mannerisms, and ways of or reactions to speaking and typing but that one is only universally true about people who don't have any severe cognitive function. If they do have the severe cognitive disability, some autistic people will literally pick a fight for no reason and constantly pretend that you insulted them or whatever even MORE often then bad types of NT do. Even the previously-apparently-true claim about "autistic people do not mistreat people based on stupid visual factors", such as what clothes you are wearing (unless it is very, very extreme of course), gender, and race. EVEN THAT is no longer true - some autistic people have literally joined feminim.

One of these falsely-stated ideas about autism is that "autistic people do not understand basic social rules". In my personal experience, literally MOST nondisabled autistic people understand basic social rules. Individuals can have some things that they don't know how to do or don't know how to do correctly. For example, personally, I cannot "call a waitress to my table" apparently. Many or most autistic people "dont know how" to start talking with a random guy in a noncasual, crowded bar if he didnt talk to them first. These are not "basic social rules", these are social things that are well outside of any "requirements of human interaction. MOST nondisabled autistic people also know about other, made-up, nonexistent "social rules", like "don't wear that color during a certian month or to a certian type of event" or "don't get all of the sauce off your plate"", is in fact Not Real, is fucking stupid, and whoever said that to you is simply fucking stupid. This is simply obviously not a requirement of human interaction. Whuch is why zero STRANGERS have ever complained if you lick your plate wrapper, only people who are "with you" have ever complained about it.

There are many, many, many, many autistic people who DO know basic social rules. The ones that ACTUALLY MATTER (i.e. "if you do/don't do this, you are ACTUALLY being a dick" or "people who do or say this usually mean X, so that girl thought that you meant X, and if you didn'tean X then you have to tell her that, and also tell anyone else who ever reacts like she did") and ACTUALLY EXIST. For sexample, how long is it okay to wait before saying a word after someone has asked you a direct question? Which sentences are questions that do not end in question marks? When is it okay, while waiting in your car, to begin an intensive game that the man you are waiting for will have to wait on you to finish the entire game, after thry get back to the car? Why is it NOT okay to yell at that man after he caused X (in most cases here, the answer is probably because YOU caused Y, and as a result of cahaing Y, you made "him cause" X)?

There are many, many, many AUTISTIC people who know all of these things. Some which are just basic "intuitive" or "osmosis" knowledge, but some of which (the last one) are just basic logic, because another myth is that autistic people are always "logical", because in reality a lot of autistic people have a lot of trouble with basic logic, when it relates to "some guy who is completely irrelevant to me did something I don't like" (example: Someone has a different and valid opinion of the best strategy in an MMO, an autistic man encounters him in the game and "rants and raves" for 2 days about how "stupid" he supposedly is for using a different strategy while also being successful in the game like you are.... but he wasn't even in your group or party.), or when it relates to actual social interactions like the example in the previous paragraph.

So, some autistic people DO know all of the basic social rules that are required for human interaction, some of the same autistic people DO have the full normal level of ability of logic when it relates to social interactions IRL (or similar to IRL), and many of the autistic people who DO know both of these things "all the time", DO know when any ALEGED "social rule" does not actually exist, is fucking stupid, or does actually exist but also who cares. (For example, waiting in line with actually enough space between the people in front of you, people behind you might narcistically demamd you to "move closer" to the guy in front of you. They are not breaking any social rule and the fact that they are not breaking it is not fucking stupid (since there are some situations where they arent wrong to say it if they had said it nicely), but also Who Fucking Cares, you are obviously not required to get cancer or have hospital-level problems from emissions of cigarettes and fabric softener nor are you required to risk accidentally physically touching a gross or condescending-looking person, just because the people behind you "are not breaking basic social rules" when they request you to expose yourself to danger or to stand in a dirty spot.)

In short, you can ask AUTISTIC people about all the rules and situations and what probably happened with this girl who yelled at you. You can even sometimes know whether the girl is a bitch for yelling at you or not! Because many nondisabled autistic people do know all of these things, and when you ask them they will be able to tell you the truth so that you cannot be gaslighted on that basis if the knowledgeable autistic friend is able to witness or to know everg detail about the situation, and will be able to tell yoi which people are telling you real social rules that are actually true vs which people are just "bitchy cheerleaders" or "90s North states Republicans", or, the lesser form of it if you are personally not a voluntary part of that society, which people instead of saying correct rules, are just "rules-based soccer moms".

The difficult part of it, if you are a nondisabled autistic man who doesn't know these things, is to be able to know whuch autistic people do kbow these things. To be able tp observe the autistic friend talking for a whole conversation with another nonautistic or knowledgeable autistic human being, and be able to tell from the observation that these do people do not have trouble of "not knowing what the rules are" (or of knowing how to listen and solve it if therr is an occasional moment when one of them didnt know, forgot, or want able to do the thing that is the "normal rule".... knowing how to do that can also be part of "shat the rules are", sometimes). But, if the autistic friend is answering your question, explaining the situation of "Why did that do that?", or you can ask them the question of "Does this rule actually exist or is it made up and only stupid assholes pretend it's real?". Then you can get the real and true answer or possible answer(s), if you have accurately chosen the right autistic friend to ask (did not chose an inaccuate Asperger's friend who believes they know the rules but they actually dont.... someone who conplains and gets angry about the MMO player who wasnt even in their party is a likely example of someone who is inaccurate).

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ActuallyOpposesFascists wrote

...Well of course not, but since literally no human being in existence has ever said "the reason why I won't allow the injection of substances into the bloodstrem of myself and/or my child is because they/we are autistic", yoir headline is literally pointless... but also unacceptable, since you are literally trying to make people believe that a lot of people have said that (otherwise you wouldn't post such a headline).

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Caterpillar OP wrote

I think in my case it would be art school, these are my kind of weirdos :) and I definitely have to be around autistic people more. In my town there is an art get-together for autistic people where we all paint and talk 😊💚 I think a lot of my struggle lies in my need of assistance. My assistants know the various mental health diagnosis that I've been given. I want them to know about the autism so we can work better together, but often I'm to tell them. I've been running the strategy of "I'll just name my needs and traits and communicate what is in my head without calling it autism" but lately all my brain produces is "bad, no, stop, uncomfortable, this hurts" Then I'm asked what hurts and what's wrong. And I'm like, I don't know do I look like I know? How do you communicate soup brain? And how do you work with assistance when both parties don't know what is going on? (I've tried to just get a diagnosis to be able to understand and explain, but "don't look autistic" to people) and to be honest, at the ward my therapist and the doctors weren't especially interested that autism thing. I had to bring it up again and again but I was always redirected to my trauma and BPD. Even if I consider my disability and the complete lack of accommodation and understanding (+my broken family) as my core trauma. Idk. It's a bit twisted. Sorry, I started rambling. What are the systems that you use?

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Glittery_Cake wrote

For me personally it really helps to 1. keep Food around that you like, makes you feel good and is easy to prepare and eat. 2. I always pack my bag before I head out, to make sure I have everything I need (some snacks, keys , wallet , water , something to keep my brain busy are my essentials) . It really makes me personally feel more prepared, less anxious and less overwhelmed

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__algernon wrote

I can definitely relate to a lot of what you say. I get by with immovable optimism erring on blind faith, not evidence.

There are definitely communities and nooks and crannies where you can fit and find a comfortable life. Some parts of academia for example, are known to shelter odd characters, not just autistic-spectrum, all over the place. If you've ever spent much time around hardcore theoretical mathematicians, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Some countries are also more direct communicators which makes it a lot easier since there is less to figure out. One of my Neurotypical friends moved to Netherlands and said even she found it easier. Simple fact is NTs struggle also. The world is full of lies.

I'd also point to examples of autists I know and throughout history that have done well. Many of them figured it out a lot alone. Many have lives that are far from normal, but very interesting and enjoyable. I think that referring to NT theories of how things work has limited use, because it reinforces their superiority and reality since they are the source. Further, it might by assumption push you in a direction they think you want rather than what you want. Better to go with your own experience and test yourself, its the best way to know what you are truly capable of.

Watch "the accountant" again. Keep building your systems, or whatever you do.

I think the worst thing for me was when I focused on NT ideals of normal, mostly enforced by my family, which I mostly ignored but could only do so up to a point. It has taken a lot from my life. It lead my to this "diagnosis", but it has had little upside thus far, only a source of anxiety.

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Fool wrote

Reply to by __algernon

how do you internalize your difference?

Internalise, like consume/eat?

whats your trick?

I use to swallow sandwiches whole. Does that count?

lack of TOM idea

Terrestrial Organic Matter?

I always forget

This is the way

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Crown_of_Ice wrote

Reply to by __algernon

I usually try to feel proud that I'm ND and that being unique is fun. Trying to learn someone's character can be fun, but it's usually futile because they're often multifaceted and deceptive anyway.

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__algernon OP wrote

Reply to comment by Jialunes in by __algernon

hahahaha same hair and same size. Exactly. I mean one great way to make friends is to assume you already know them, and sort of gaslight your way into it as they usually reflect your positivity. This is another way this trait can be a plus.

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Jialunes wrote

Reply to by __algernon

Having troubles with faces made me develop the skill of pretending to know the person I'm having a conversation with, while having secretly no clue of who they are. It's always a mystery to resolve when someone start talking to me in the street, because I have to guess without knowing where and when I first met them.

But it's worse when the opposite happens :

There was one particularly embarrassing moment when I confused a stranger for a friend, and started info dumping about anime. That poor girl was so confused, and I obliviously thought she forgot about last we met and bombarded her with details. It took another friend of mine to make me realize my mistake, and that I didn't know her.

They had the same hair and the same size! Though her talking pattern was different and it helped me understand that something was off.

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BrainFarmReject wrote

Reply to by __algernon

My father frequently tries. It is strange because many of the things he tries to manipulate me into doing are things I might have done if he'd just asked nicely. Perhaps it is a matter of pride for him.

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InfAmy wrote

Reply to comment by __algernon in by __algernon

I do the same thing a lot of the time, I don't have any good tips to manage that I'm afraid, except to try to notice if you feel negatively about someone approaching you, or you find yourself avoiding locations where specific people are likely to be, that could be a good indicator.

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Mx_Flow wrote

Reply to by __algernon

Have you asked them to tell you directly if they’re bored of the topic?

Idk I feel like I make those responses you mentioned to things and I don’t intend them as emotional communication, sometimes you actually don’t have a well crafted expansive answer and also don’t want to end the discussion either. I feel like if you had this response to me IRL I’d be sad that you just assumed I wasn’t in for the discussion because I don’t have everything in the world to say on it

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InfAmy wrote

Reply to comment by __algernon in by __algernon

I've used that notation for so long it took me a second to realise that it is bash notation after reading that line heh.

With regard to the snub, They do want you to stop talking, but they still want you to follow the "social niceties" they're programmed to use, so disregarding them completely makes them feel like you've just snubbed them in response, and allistic people can find it quite jarring for a conversation to suddenly just be dropped and the other person walk away, so that snub to them and feeling of discomfort is what will work as the feedback.

If people twist your words and attack, I would just avoid talking to them entirely, and ignore them when they try to talk to you. That's not always an option unfortunately, and dealing with terrible people was the biggest drain on me when I worked customer facing roles. It can happen anywhere though. Last week I had a situation where the information I was providing was directly relevant (and of significant benefit) to the task at hand, and it was taken as an insult to the person for "doing things wrong" and made them storm off and complain. I was quite happy continuing on my own, and I believe that person ended up realising the problem in that exchange was not on my side of things. Sometimes it is easier to just focus on other things and then vent the frustration later.

When you have the choice, don't give the pleasure of your company to those you know are not worthy of it.

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InfAmy wrote

Reply to by __algernon

It's sometimes the things other people think are minor that are the hardest to deal with. It has been a while since I've had to deal with people who act like that (I tend to end up in circles with other NDs, or at least talk primarily to only other NDs nowadays) but when I have been in those situation I learnt to just stop talking, stare wherever I was looing for a second, then just walk away. It's just not worth the effort of doing anything more to talk to them, and they take it as a rude negative feedback in the way they wanted you to take their comment. For people who do it regularly but you have to interact with, it can reduce how often they do it.
The allistic brain wants to "fit in" when socialising, and automatically recognises snubs like the one you give as a message that "you don't fit in" and so you can use that to train them to be less rude to people by giving the form of negative feedback they understand, and training them the same way you would train a misbehaving puppy. Because so many things they do are behavioural addictions (they call them habits) you can reinforce this to the point where it becomes a habit for them to be honest (or just not hurtful at least) and can improve the interactions for you and other NDs them too!

Yes, it is manipulation, but I view it the same way as training a puppy that the kitchen floor is not the bathroom, it is done to improve the conditions for both parties, and has overall beneficial effects for everyone involved, with less need to spend the energy on cleaning up the mess it makes.

It is a lot easier around other people who do the same thing. I learn so much from other people with different special interests, and I find it hard to step away from others when they're infodumping, so being in situations that allow you to take the time is a big benefit to that. If you do need to step away then be honest about why, "I need to get $task done, but can we carry this on when I'm finished?".

One other piece of advice I'd give is to avoid the term "high-functioning", I used to use the term, but I've since found out that a lot of people interpret it as "doesn't need support, pretend they never mentioned it and treat them like they're neurotypical" which can get in the way of being interpretted correctly, or prevent you from receiving support in professional situtions. This isn't meant as a criticism, just something that I wish I had known about before.

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