Submitted by TimmyCatChores in MentalWellbeing

Psychological needs can only be filled collectively. The liberal mental-health narrative focused on individuals is bogus. It puts the onus for mental health on the individual, while ignoring the fact that the system makes people psychotic.

A radical movement would be to become the mental health support system the country does not have.

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"it’s in vogue these days to teach meditation as a practice to help people become more compassionate. It’s also fashionable to turn to scientific research on the human brain to see what neurological factors may be inhibiting compassion.

While these approaches are not without their benefits, their focus on the individual does not address the larger systemic issues that Marshall refers to time and time again. The fact that people learn to manage and lower their reactive impulses during stressful moments does little to change the dehumanizing effects of the culture itself. It merely makes for a less reactive and more accommodating population.

It may in fact be just what the “systemic machine” wants .. for people learn how to self soothe in the midst of an increasingly dehumanizing regime."

http://www.rachellelamb.com/blog/keeping-marshall-rosenbergs-work-alive

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

Interested to hear more about this! I have an avalanche of thoughts for the f/radmentalhealth forum that I've to this day not had the emotional energy to jostle together and express.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

I'm going to try working with the wiki, because it's really the only way to organize such a complex aspect.

I already have lots of content to bring.

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leftous wrote (edited )

This is something I've thought a lot about as someone who practices spirituality to some degree. I've noticed it a lot in spiritual literature: how to apply 'presence' to your work in sales, meditation for work anxiety, or how to cope with a bad manager.

Johann Hari has been addressing this to some extent, except instead of spirituality he is talking about anti-depressants. These drugs just numb people to the horrors and emptiness of neoliberalism; people becoming sick, anxious, or depressed is a perfectly logical reaction to our current system. Yet capitalists know it's far more profitable to enable and prolong the sickness, then monetize the cure.

Similarly, 'spirituality' has become a commodity that merely helps remove and distract people from the current reality. The irony is that spirituality, when practiced truly, is a state of being highly conscious and aware; being in connection with the universe. Yet it's being used to isolate people into a more serene mindset; a state where you are completely unaware of anything beyond your immediate reality and self.

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WindTalk wrote

The liberal mental-health narrative focused on individuals is bogus.

There seems a group of people here who think that dehumanizing and attacking "liberals' is the biggest accomplishment in the world. Funny how you criticize certain directions of focus, individuality without group, but don't see your own extreme out-group focus.

Do you mean moral liberalism? Or politics? or? As much of the planet for the past 1500 years has lived under various forms of orthodox authority of god, and liberals / heretics against such orthodoxy I (and many others) consider significant progress against misinterpretation of stories.

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shanoxilt wrote

Take your imperialist religious nonsense and fuck off.

We were here before you and we'll be here after you.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

Is that verdict of the of all of Raddle.me?

I'm going to need to know how to handle this before putting any more effort into the site.

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shanoxilt wrote

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انْفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

--Jean Luc Picard

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WindTalk wrote (edited )

A radical movement would be to become the mental health support system the country does not have.

"the country", as in a specific one. But a critical concept of human minds and spirituality is that they are universal.

A radical movement would be to become the mental health support system the country does not have.

Let's apply that thinking to radical Islamic terrorism. A radical movement that focuses on a change of the spiritual and mental health system, such as making adjustments to sexual interactions in public. And the support system being a hierarchical mosque system. What it promotes is to dismiss individual freedom of choice, individual beliefs, and individual challenging the collective system. And it survives the raise and fall of nations and works across multiple nations.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

You seem to think that because you understand something everyone one on earth will magically think the same way.

I live in a country that creates a lot of systemic violence for the world. I care about the people my country hurts. I care about the people who are stuck in our huge cities.

Solidarity and activism don't come out of the sky. They happen between people in cities.

'hierarchical mosque system' -- weird abstract strawman.

OK ...I've seen this stuff before. Weird abstractions is right-libertarian sophistry.

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WindTalk wrote (edited )

OK ...I've seen this stuff before. Weird abstractions is right-libertarian sophistry.

You seem to constantly exercise dismissing individuality by just slapping a name-label on people. I wasn't giving you simple answers, I was showing you just a couple examples of how limited your approach seems to be. Starting off a public conversation by using wildcard words like "bullshit" to mean anything you want doesn't help. Your attitude keeps coming across in all your replies on this topic: "anything I don't agree with in 1/2 page and 45 seconds of thinking" is summarily dismissed.

People have been trying to build new social systems for thousands of years, we still have books explaining their ideas from long ago. It isn't trivial, easy, simplistic.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

Yeah, I've seen the same arguments. I recognize the logic.

"It isn't trivial, easy, simplistic."

Give me your version of what to do.

Remember we live in multicultural cities of many faiths.

What is it you want to do, and what would be the first step.

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WindTalk wrote

Remember we live in multicultural cities of many faiths.

Maybe you do, but I do not. And I think there are faith systems people just don't declare. Such as faith in lies and deception. Most of the history of religion hasn't been based on truth at all, it's been based on parents educating children and children being extremely loyal to what they learned in their childhood.

It's exceedingly rare for a mature set of adults to create a new system and institute it. Jonestown comes to mind, so does Scientology. But these approaches are more about cult to a specific book or personality - but that could also be said of classic religions.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

"Jonestown comes to mind, so does Scientology."

This is insulting reactionary bullshit. Just block me. OK. bullshit talker. I'm not buying your bullshit.

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WindTalk wrote

This is insulting reactionary bullshit. Just block me. OK. bullshit talker. I'm not buying your bullshit.

You seem confused, I'm not selling anything, so there isn't anything for you to buy. You, however, are posting here selling the idea that "everything is bullshit I don't agree with" and a hate-filled reactionary reply attitude.

You seem to really like to label discussions bullshit as fast as you can! It's the first word in your post, and the last in your replies.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

This is the mental health forum. You're not adding any information on how to create anything, but what you happen to think the self is.

It's just out there. It doesn't have anything to do with anything in real life except for your idea of what a self should be.

Tell me how to help people. That's the game.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

the part about what to do, in terms of activism?

You need to tell collectivist what you want because they need to build that world for you.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

I'm getting from you a subjective opinion on who to be. But I have no idea how you expect to have that manifest in real life for the people ... who mostly live in big cities.

That fact that you say you don't in cities, and think it's just about being who you want to be outside of culture, leaves everyone else behind.

I have a city to worry about.

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WindTalk wrote (edited )

The fact that people learn to manage and lower their reactive impulses during stressful moments does little to change the dehumanizing effects of the culture itself.

You say "during stressful moments". Ok, let's say your team just won or lost a key bowl or cup game in a sport. Positive or negative stressful moment. People tend to be de-individualized and become gangs of " reactive impulses".

Similarly, all over the world, how do individuals behave when war breaks out? Do they typically resist and promote peace, or go along with the crowd?

I think you are dividing up along poor lines. Without being free of crowd behavior under what you call "reactive impulses", there can't be an end to participation in group violence - the kind of escalation/revenge that violence and hate frequently draws.

bullshit spirituality

A lot of oriental spirituality, I can speak for Buddhism, educate one on psychological impulses and how to be more self-aware of raising behavior. To not just act out on impulses but to develop a system of self-control through awareness. And I don't mean just learning yoga alone (that many do today), but also the words and teachings that go along with it.

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TimmyCatChores OP wrote

I want to know if people see the divide here in psychology.

It's hyperreality that people believe an individual alone creates their own reality.

"Relativism - the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute. "

The right-wing angle here is relativist. "Truth is whatever you think it is"

I follow rational-skepticism and science for my argumentation. Part of that is social science.

People that insist culture is constructed from the individual are relativist and essentialist.

The fact that every generation learns from the previous, and we learn our selves from within the culture, or we don't function in the culture, is self-evident. That's where social psychology comes-in.

Right-wingers hate psychology.

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