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Glenn_carbon wrote

Cheese is overpriced, fucking delicious, enjoyed by most people in many dishes, and fairly easy to pocket. So I guess it makes sense it would be stolen a lot.

But if you're going to grab some, do yourself a favor and grab blocks, don't get that preshredded stuff.

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icycoldblackhandofdeath2 wrote

This. I know someone who's worked in that industry, and they've told me that a lot of the chemicals (ones that aren't required to be labeled) in certain types of shredded cheese and pizzas (used to keep the shape of the shredded cheese) are known to be carcinogenic by those who manufacture them and have a long list of untested, unregulated chemicals that they switch to when the FDA bans whatever they're using currently.

Shredding cheese yourself also tastes better.

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lemonbeam wrote

if it's stolen it's ethical, if it's bought its not.

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ziq wrote

i doubt the cow whose babies were stolen gives a shit if you stole her milk or paid for it

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DeletedButArchived wrote

Tbh, cows don't care if you eat cheese or not

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ziq wrote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnZPJJ2QG4

Keep sucking on that tit joe

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DeletedButArchived wrote (edited )

I'm vegan. Also, I don't know how that's relevant to your claim about how cows care what consumer choices humans make.

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ziq wrote (edited )

cows don't like having their calves ripped from them and killed so perpetual infants humans can mechanically pump their nipples until there's more blood than milk coming out - what's so hard to understand here? is this one of those ideology things where people on the internet have said 'eating meat is ethical if you steal it' so many times that you can't wrap your head around it not being ethical, no ifs ands or buts?

what about stealing blood diamonds? you think the kids who were exploited to mine those diamonds give a shit if you paid for the end product or not?

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DeletedButArchived wrote

I agree with your evidence but I disagree with it proving your thesis.

Your evidence: cattle are treated horribly by the industry

This is true

Your thesis: Cows care if people steal cheese or not

I believe this to be false and not proven correct by the evidence you gave.

Does have no understanding of theft, cheese, grocery stores, human consumer choices, and economic disecentivization. I'm sure they could have some conception of the concepts if they were allowed to view said concepts. I don't think a majority or even any cows really have a conception of these concepts. It's therefore impossible for them to have an opinion on things they have no idea exists. The same way I don't have opinions on things I don't know exists. It's physically impossible.

It's a pretty argument but your the one who brought up the idea that cows have an opinion on stealing cheese in the first place. Like I doubt there are really any cows who have seen cheese needless connected cheese being made of milk. Or grocery shopping for that matter.

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throwaway wrote

Here we are, discussing what cows might think about people lifting cheese.

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ziq wrote

all dairy consumption is stealing from cows whether you pay for it or not.

cows don't make milk to feed humans, they make it to feed their calves.

cows make milk to nourish their young, so yes they care when humans kill their young to siphon the milk into their cheese products.

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[deleted] wrote

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DeletedButArchived wrote

Maybe you should rethink your beliefs if you are spending your free time trying to stop people from stealing from factory farms and corporate grocery stores.

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ziq wrote

idk who ur replying to or what they said but if you have a choice to steal rice and beans or steal milk and cheese and you choose milk and cheese, and tell yourself this is praxis, you're lying to yourself. you're a grown ass person, you don't need a cow to breastfeed you so you can survive

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Kinshavo wrote

I erased my comments bc there's nothing here for me but being accused of being antishoplifting

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ziq wrote

considering all these shoplifters are middle class settlers who likely make more money in a year than we could make in a decade, it's kinda hard not to be

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BorrowingBrov OP wrote

youre saying youre antishoplifting cause people who shoplift are middle class settlers? bro what. do you even read what people are posting here. a lot of us are broke as fuck and steal to save money because we're broke as fuck.

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DeletedButArchived wrote (edited )

I dont think it's praxis. I think it's ridiculous that anarchists are spending their time boosting wallmarts profit margin by moralizing poor people.

I'm obviously somewhat sympathetic to consumer choices argument but I think there is pretty good reasons to view it as far less effective than most think. Also, far less certain to have the outcome vegans think it will. Once you get to the stealing level, the whole consumer choices logic eats it self. So I think stealing cheese is morally righteous cause or whatever, it's silly to see people mad that cheese has been stolen.

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ziq wrote

again i don't know what they said, but if they said stealing cheese isn't ethical because all dairy consumption adds to the continued exploitation of cows and the full-sail destruction of the ecosystem to further expand the meat/dairy industry, then they're right. it doesn't boost some american corporation's profits to speak out against systemic rape and murder on the internet. like everyone on the settler left, your arguments are entrenched in exploitative narratives. shoplifters aren't sacred cows

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Kinshavo wrote

You made all the points I wish I made in my deleted comments, sometimes I feel that the language barrier enters in my way bc if they tried to start a bad faith argument with an accusation like ”u should rethink your beliefs you think stealing cheese is bad meet" my point didn't reason with them clear enough

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ziq wrote

i think the problem is these people can't shift themselves to a frame of reality that doesn't revolve wholly around consumerism, so their "solution" to consumer culture is to find ways to make the products of consumerism "free" (socialism, co-ops, shoplifting), rather than to reach beyond consumer culture entirely and recognize that there's no such thing as free when the environmental and colonization costs are so high

and they also lean hard on moralizing ("poor people deserve to steal meat!") while at the same time accusing everyone else of moralizing for pointing out that these people don't need to steal meat to survive because they have every fucking food in the world available at their fingertips.

i mean they mention walmart, which is literally a giant shrine to every product imaginable. anyone with a walmart down the street isn't starving. it's insulting to people who actually live in food deserts.

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DeletedButArchived wrote

i think the problem is these people can't shift themselves to a frame of reality that doesn't revolve wholly around consumerism, so their "solution" to consumer culture is to find ways to make the products of consumerism "free" (socialism, co-ops, shoplifting), rather than to reach beyond consumer culture entirely and recognize that there's no such thing as free when the environmental and colonization costs are so high

Hey, something we can agree on. Cool!

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Kinshavo wrote

their "solution" to consumer culture is to find ways to make the products of consumerism "free"

Exactly my point, I don't care about the lifestyle they can carry on. Even more the people who need the food etc.

But just a tought, how many shoplifters here are willing to go dumpster diving or freecycling, etc?

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ziq wrote

it's all part of the continued colonialist subjugation of anarchy. i'm lucky i can use English as well as I can even tho it's not my first language, but i also struggle to articulate myself and usually have to edit my comments 10 times to get my point across. my essays have to be rewritten literally hundreds of times before they make any sense

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metocin wrote

disagree. the store is still going to buy more to replace what you stole. you are still driving the demand for milk production. it is still unethical to take and consume stolen unethical products.

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DeletedButArchived wrote

Yeah ALF is actually supporting animal agriculture if you think about it. When they free animals they incentivize the farmers to buy more animals to replace them.

Damn, ALF should do something useful like buying beyond meat instead.

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metocin wrote

Whether or not you're being serious that's not a great argument. If ALF was active enough the threat of having their "stock" (read: enslaved animals) liberated could force farmers to rethink and change their unethical business models in favour of planting.

Try again. Its still not ethical to steal and consume animal products.

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DeletedButArchived wrote

Your logic doesn't make any sense than. You either believe stealing from industrial agriculture provides disincentive or it doesn't. Saying that it only provides disincentive when it proves your argument right doesn't make any sense

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metocin wrote

I could say there's a difference between stealing from the retailer and liberating from the producer. There may be a flaw in my logic but you equating the liberation of live animals with the theft of their stolen labour products for your own greedy consumption is also illogical and a gross defense coming from a 'vegan'.

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DeletedButArchived wrote

I never said they were the same. I'm saying they provide the same disincentive to manufacturers. If anything stealing the end product has a greater effect on the large firms that control the industry than attacking the comparatively much smaller producers. If you care about that kind of thing.

I don't know why you have to make up arguments I made to villanize me rather than actual address what I say.

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metocin wrote (edited )

Okay, I wont make up arguments. Consuming cheese is gross no matter how you obtain it, unless you will starve without it. If you're stealing shit you can steal things other than cheese. There is no good reason to steal and eat cheese. Either way it's not your milk to consume. That's bad karma going in your body. Steal some vegan products instead.

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ziq wrote (edited )

or better yet bypass the food industrial complex altogether and get your food direct from the source (trees). all i ate yesterday was apricots, loquats and mulberries. the whole world is covered in fruiting trees and wild greens if you look for it

the reason consumerism persists is because people have been brainwashed into thinking food needs to be domesticated, cultivated, sprayed, processed and packaged to be palatable

food needn't be a product

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metocin wrote

Thats the ideal. I bought a book on local edible plants and fungi and I hope to start some guerilla gardening soon as well as help my folks with their backyard garden. I live in a small city so it would be hard for me not to survive through grocery stores right now but my end goal is to eat only local organic food, and foraging/growing as much of it myself.

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DeletedButArchived wrote (edited )

I can understand that reason to not like people eating cheese. I'm not into the whole declaring anything as sacred thing but most people do view many things as sacred. So making the sacred argument when ethics is brought up makes sense and is a pretty good critique of it imo.

Clarification, I find a whole host of reasons to disagree with the whole sacred thing but it is a reasonable response to lemon bean. If you said that initially I wouldn't have responded.

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