Submitted by existential1 in Green

Just finished reading a collection of Ivan Illych essays, and it really got me thinking. I would say he was definitely in favor of an-prim "light". I'm wondering how technologically intense the "non-prim" solutions are. And if the those solutions are rooted in technology that itself is not sustainable.

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foggymorn wrote

Anything rooted in industrial technology isn't sustainable because industry doesn't just sit still, it grows and spreads and destroys everything in its path.

There are no non-anticiv schools of anarchism that have put even an iota of thought into actually ending climate change. They might make vague allusions to 'sustainable' tech (solarpunk) or ridiculous expectations for space mining and uploading humans to the cloud (anarcho-transhumanism) but none of them are based in reality or have any understanding of what it means to really oppose hierarchy.

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celebratedrecluse wrote (edited )

This isn't wrong, but I think there are additional theoretical perspectives and praxes which could be articulated.

The use of biotechnology, such as photoelectric bacteria, could become the basis for a greening and decentralization of electric systems. Additionally, the use of homemade "pharmaceuticals" via a variety of possible methods (isolation from engineered bacterial cultures, automated chemical reactions ala 4 Thieves, etc) could reduce, and eventually eliminate, reliance on industrially produced chemicals for healthcare purposes. A proliferation of raincatches and water purification/storage technology would eliminate reliance on managed watersheds, dams, etc. This is just a sampling of possibilities, but there are flaws in all of them-- it will be a long road to a deindustrialized technological mode.

At the end of the day, the primitivist framework provides indispensible tools for confronting the root causes of climate change, theoretically and practically. However, I think that realistically speaking technologies could be reimagined in such a way as to help end the industrial mode of production. Honestly, I sure hope we can make it so, because I am not willing to let people who are not able to live well without medical technology or running water simply suffer, let alone die

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An_Old_Big_Tree wrote

Are you including anti-civ and post-civ approaches in "non-prim"?

Cool that you're readng Illich. If you come across anything particularly good on schooling please post to f/pedagogies :)

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rot wrote

Drastically lowering our dependence on fossil fuels, mined minerals and lowering overall production of things, carbon capture, more sustainable versions of existing technologies,/ practices, ending harmful ecological practices like slash and burn and landfills.

Alot of anti-civ stuff but not totally an-prim. I'm skeptical that we could even go anprim at this point, not sure if the environment is suited to human survival anymore.

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Pop wrote

I think it goes something like this

fight for worker control of the factories and workplaces
get worker control
workers care about their environment and are feeling empowered by their control over their lives, so, no longer driven to cut corners by the profit motive, they won't just dump their waste or use bad cheap materials or whatever
???
reverse climate change

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[deleted] wrote

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Pop wrote

Yeah but empires destroyed ecosystems through perpetual expansion long before capitalism existed

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[deleted] wrote

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Pop wrote (edited )

I'm interested to hear more about this and what you mean.

Not sure how I'm moving the goalposts; the context is solving climate change and I'm suggesting that it's rooted in empire beyond merely capitalism

by empire here I'm talking about leviathans, if anybody is interested

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[deleted] wrote

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Pop wrote

There are many examples of non-capitalist civilisations that levelled forests and plundered natural resources as part of a systemic expanding process. Often these have reached a limit in their expansion (like we have now with globalisation) and then they collapse in on themselves

this is not merely about human inclusion in ecosystems but in exploitation of nature as part of an expansionary consumptive movement that goes hand in hand with imperialism

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BADC wrote

We need a bunch of dirt pharaohs with whips riding chariots behind long lines of people on their knees cleaning Gaia with their bare hands.

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