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autonomous_hippopotamus OP wrote

On the collapse thing, i just don't think that Ecological Crises will lead necessarily to the collapse of Capitalism and the State, let alone Civilization itself. Even if Billions of people die, and large areas of of inhabited land go underwater, the rulers of countries across the world are well prepared for this to happen: they have built massive bunkers in the mounters and military plans drawn up for every possible scenario.

The problem is many people view collapse as this sudden, apocalyptic event, rather than a very protracted process of ecological destruction. Technology -- digital networks, computers and cellphones etc. would not be destroyed by this process, but remain as means of continued coordination among surviving humans,. I think certain areas would become ungovernable but the idea that civilization would collapse is wishful thinking.


supernice wrote

I am with you on this. Collapse is very gradual and is happening as we speak. I don’t believe it will lead to the end of Capitalism or the State, but I think it will reduce the size and sphere of influence of both. Particularly when it starts happening on a larger scale. State forces will choose to focus on controlling smaller, more desirable stretches of land instead of all of it. There will be many areas outside of their control. Perhaps because they can no longer maintain dominance over larger areas, or perhaps because they simply view them as undesirable. It doesn’t matter really. Large parts of the planet will become nearly uninhabitable.

Example: southwest Asia (Middle East). It is already experiencing desertification at a very extreme pace, war is rampant, and the water is becoming less and less accessible. This is why the Israelis hold the Golan Heights. It has nothing to do with “the promised land”. It’s because it provides 30% of Israels water supply. It is also why during the Israeli occupation of Lebanon they retreated to the Litani river and wouldn’t leave until Hezbollah kicked them out by force. The Litani is a huge resource for the area and feeds much of the area. Besides water shortages, the majority of southwest Asia has been polluted in the extreme by the munitions exploding all over the place for the last century (depleted uranium, chemical and biological agents, etc.), not to mention intentional ecological destruction such as Saddam Hussein attempting to dry out the marshes of southern Iraq, and currently the Turks stopping the flow of water to the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. What I’m trying to say is that if the more stable countries are complaining about mass migration now, wait until they see what’s coming in the next 20-30 years! This kind of thing is going to cause the State to shrink and become even more authoritarian and borders will be closed. Every country is going to become Israel, shooting children at its borders indiscriminately.

The State and Capitalism will still be there, they will just control less of the planet and revert back to trying to keep out the “barbarians”. Apologies for the wall of text, try as I might, I’m too long winded for my own good!


autonomous_hippopotamus OP wrote

^^ Some good analysis there, no need to apologize

yeah i think we're totally in agreement, so i think the weakness of primitivism (and maybe some post-civ thought) is the idea civilization will just collapse on it's own. It's like how certain Marxists used to think Capitalism would just collapse under the weight of it's internal contradictions, so you don't need to actively work towards overthrowing capital and building what will replace it. It is basically like christian fundamentalists who don't care about social injustice because the rapture gonna come and fix everything anyway.