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loukanikos wrote

I watched Green Gold two nights ago. Really awesome and uplifting. I wish there was a better quality version available because as a 45 min doc, its like a perfect introduction to permaculture for those not yet in the know. I'm going to check out The Man Who Stopped the Desert sometime soon.

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existential1 OP wrote

I enjoyed it as well. The latter film is one of my favorites in this genre as it is about the person who did the work and sort of gives him his flowers while he's still breathing.

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loukanikos wrote

Finally watched The Man Who Stopped the Desert. Thanks for the recommendation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. The juxtaposition of a farmer from the Sahel against a bunch of suits from various "development" agency was very funny to me, maybe not in a good way, but I really enjoyed that. The movie was uplifting but also a good reminder that its not easy to affect the trajectory of powerful forces like culture and capital in agriculture. Also this isn't important, but that was really impressive doc from a production standpoint. Clearly it was very low budget but simultaneaously very well-done within the constraints they must've had.

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existential1 OP wrote

Yeah, I love it. As you mentioned, the resistance to "good" work is real. Dude had his own village questioning his mental state since he decided to work with nature instead of trying to be stuck in the cycle agroindustry will have you in. The phrase, "not all skinfolk are kinfolk" comes to mind.

Also, the time...people get stuck in time-frames that are only possible with industrial production and capitalism instead of natural timelines. It took decades to grow some of those trees. We need to have perspective on that sort of timescale which means planting from seed instead of grafts...another reason I hate grafts -.-

I want to do what he did but for urban environments. Make it to where no matter where you live, it's waaay more trees than anything else. Even in the middle of the city, I want an urban area where you can't see your neighbors house cuz of foliage, even if it's the middle of Compton or Watts. Then animals will return, they'll be free food for everyone, and people will have more basic needs taken care of without even having to try.

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loukanikos wrote

That would really be something. I hope we can make that happen someday. Hey I am Interested to hear more on your thoughts about grafts vs. seeds. I think you were telling me in another thread about an apple tree you grew from seed. Why do you prefer seed over graft? Is it mostly for the genetic diversity?

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ziq wrote

I have 2 apple trees I grew in ground from seed (never transplant or it kills the tap root). The apples are pretty good but the real value is the health of the trees. they're big and robust while my grafted apple trees are small and sickly and struggle to adapt to my climate

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existential1 OP wrote

This is huge. My apple trees have smaller apples but are able to withstand drought and cold snaps better than the trees the City plants right down the street.

I also wonder about how modern fruits have disproportionately skewed our perspective of proper food portions. The apples that grow in my yard are ridiculously sweet. Like, painfully sweet. But they're very very small. You eat one or two and really don't want any more. Conversely, if you go to the store and buy a pink lady apple, it will be super sweet and 7 or 8 times the portion of the two apples at my house.

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ziq wrote

I actually grafted a pink lady branch to one of the seedlings and the wild apples on it, while smaller, are a lot tastier than the pink ladies which struggle in my climate.

There's so much propaganda out there trying to dissuade people from growing fruit tree seedlings, saying the resulting fruit will be shitty. I have so many fruit seedlings that completely disprove that, from avocados to plums to pomegranates to loquats - they're all doing far better than my grafted trees that struggle with the summer heat. Though I have one nectarine seedling that makes small hard fruit that's barely edible. Will have to graft that at some point.

I do grow figs, dragon fruits and grapes from cuttings instead of seeds though, but there are 2 wild fig trees on my land that make amazing strawberry-jam tasting self-fertile fruit which everyone online says is impossible because most fig volunteers will be caprifigs and need the fig wasp. I might just be incredibly lucky, but it's odd that both the wild figs I have are producers. And all almonds need to be grafted because wild almonds are toxic.

I don't bother with seedlings for forestry because cuttings grow so much faster in pots and you're gonna lose the taproot anyway whenever you start something in a pot.

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loukanikos wrote

Yo that rocks about the figs. I have six seedlings I just bought from a seed provider I use. I want to eventually try and plant more from seed but was worried about the wasp problem you mentioned. Thats pretty encouraging.

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loukanikos wrote

That makes sense. Do you direct sow the seeds? Or germinate them separately and then plant at a certain point?

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ziq wrote

direct sow next to an irrigation dripper

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loukanikos wrote

Nice. I am currently waiting on some Paw Paw trees I planted to sprout. Hope by the summer I'll do some apples and walnuts.

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existential1 OP wrote

Well, check out this conversation for part of it: https://raddle.me/f/Vegan/126501

In addition to what was expressed there, honestly I just view the propagation of seed as a fundamental aspect of eating plants. If we didn't have modern irrigation systems, we would likely start a considerable amount of plants every year just through shitting, much like other omnivores like bears, birds, and coyotes. We ignorantly abrogate (which is an interesting word to choose as someone who others would consider some flavor of anarchist) our responsibility to life that sustains us by refusing to grow that which eat. If everytime we ate a strawberry, we unknowingly started a plant or two, the world would be a much better place. We go hungry because we depend on food from places that can't grow where we are because we choose not to learn what it is edible in our environment and to propogate it (obviously there are additional reasons).

We also choose what features we want in plants and then lock them in forever when grafting instead of allowing plants to evolve to their surroundings, just like everything else in the world. We make plants that are less drought or cold tolerant because we do not allow them to evolve and we do not allow plants that naturally have taproots to develop them because they're started in pots or are branches of another tree. To me, not propagating by seed is a death cult or suicide pact.

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loukanikos wrote

Yeah that makes sense. The garden center industrial complex is not really producing cultivars with resilient characteristics, and even a lot of gardeners have completely stopped saving seeds. Its not a great situation.

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MHC wrote

I earned a living finding mineral oil.

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MHC wrote

I earned a living finding mineral oil.

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