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edmund_the_destroyer wrote

So we have to separate two things. First is whether the dynamic changed, and second whether people that lose out have a right to feel mistreated or unfairly discriminated against because of the situation. The answer to the second part is no - I could have the body of a god in a room full of gorgeous women that are all interested in banging only Jabba the Hutt, or maybe each other, and I am not being mistreated or discriminated against. Sex is never owed.

On your first point, I can't imagine there is real research on this. Check Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, your grocery store, Walmart, beaches, anywhere, and you will find a huge mix of couples of all ages. That includes tons of cases when a woman considered gorgeous by Hollywood is with a fat, unattractive, poorly muscular man or a man considered gorgeous by Hollywood is with a fat, unattractive woman. Don't get me wrong, you will often see two ugly (by conventional standards) people together or two gorgeous (again, by conventional standards) people together, but it's fantasy to break all relationships into those categories.

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Greyscalestarfield wrote

Yes the dynamic has changed.

On your second point, I don't think it matters whether people have 'the right' to feel a certain way.

For many, the idea of having sex has become unattainable and what begins as feelings of hopelessness start to fester.

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edmund_the_destroyer wrote (edited )

"Yes the dynamic has changed" is not evidence, just a statement. And as a counter point things like personal ads, Tinder, dating sites, social networks of all kinds, sex discussion boards, and so forth came into existence in the same era as the sexual revolution and feminism started gaining power.

So when you think of the guy three generations back with medium looks having, supposedly, an easier time finding a woman than today remember that he didn't have nearly the same opportunities to meet women as men today do. He couldn't post a personal ad, he couldn't send private messages on Twitter.

But what he didn't have is message boards and other forums to discuss his frustration with other like-minded men.

Sometimes I think Dating 101 should be a mandatory part of education in the US. I'm an average looking guy. Finding a partner isn't that hard. Now, nothing is foolproof. But a lot of the incel statements come across like the writer is desperately hoping that if they walk up to the right supermodel and say "Hi" she'll immediately offer to bang him into oblivion. Attracting a sexual partner is a skill, no different than fixing a transmission, drywalling a room, reinstalling an operating system, or shooting a rifle accurately. The only difference is that the learning curve for sex and relationships is more painful because rejection hurts and you will get rejected many times. But working past the discomfort is worthwhile, just like enduring all the boredom and pain of a workout routine is worthwhile, because the end results are worth the effort.

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raindropq wrote (edited )

this is work-normalization /economist apologetics . and appears to be validating to the (In-Cel's?) resentment .

edit: added parentheses and question mark

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edmund_the_destroyer wrote

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying I'm inadvertently supporting incel arguments with that post?

That wasn't my intent. First and foremost, the idea that anyone is owed some kind of sex or consideration with regards to sex is flat out false. The argument over incel 'rights' ends there, period.

Second and less importantly, the argument that less than flawlessly beautiful men in previous generations had easier access to sexual partners is at best unprovable but most likely false. So even the incel's belief they have a special right to whine if not act still doesn't hold up.