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aaaaargZombies wrote

Video much better than the comments in here!

Strange that it's been described as punching up, I always think of that as being a way people justify their toxic behavior to avoid accountability. Nothing toxic about the content of the video, it's a pretty well reasoned critique of the different ways in which people have tried to make feminism a part of their lived reality. queer means ATTACK? Sounds cool if you're bash back, a little less convincing if you're talking about some fucking memes.

Anyway, seeing as this is now a thread about if it's ok to "[make] fun of people for their [straight] sexualities"...

Without exception all the are the straights ok? memes I've ever encountered have never felt like attacks. Humor is as good a way of presenting a critique as a serious text but for some reason people get uncomfortable when serious topics are tackled in a non-serious tone. As a straight person I enjoy a lot of this content with a sort of gallows humor, I'm looking at it and thinking, I wish I didn't have to deal with this shit. But I know it's not an essential part of my sexual desires, it's the baggage of society.

Also, even if it's tragic at the same time, you have to admit something like a man who won't wipe his arse after shitting because he's worried it will make him gay is funny!

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moonlune OP wrote

Video much better than the comments in here!

finally someone watched it lol

Anyway, seeing as this is now a thread about if it's ok to "[make] fun of people for their [straight] sexualities"...

It's kinda ironic because the first part of the video touches on how straight culture is harmful and it's ok to make fun of straight people for perpetuating straight culture.

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aaaaargZombies wrote

Yeah, I'd just encourage people to watch the video as it probably does a better job than I can.

It's also not really just about straight people, it argues that not-being straight isn't some silver bullet. We're all subject to the same socialization after all.

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CivilizationsEnd wrote

Yeah “are the straights ok” isn’t an insult, I am legitimately concerned for their health and wellbeing

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Ashy wrote

uh

i'm not gonna watch that whole 40 minute thing but

i thought making fun of people for their sexualities isn't really cool? also making generalizations like that...?

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moonlune OP wrote

It's a clickbait title.

The tldw is that heterofatalism is the idea that women seek misogyny by seeking relationships with men. As examples, she cites second wave "political lesbianism" and all the "men are trash, love women" type of memes that are rejections of heterosexuality.
She says that this pov sucks because it reinforces an idea that the the sexist behavior of men is inevitable, and thus victim blames women for loving men (my words). And also it's kinda homophobic because it reduces same sex love to something we chose.
She concludes that gender abolitionism is cool. Of course she says stuff in a more nuanced way with cool images and jokes in between.

There are a few sources in the video description if you prefer to read than watch.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

She says that this pov sucks because it reinforces an idea that the the sexist behavior of men is inevitable

This is true, but perhaps a more interesting and nuanced version of this point of view, is that heterosexuality is not inevitable, but that it does tend to produce sexist behavior and patriarchy.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

In the era of third-wave feminism, it's easy to sit back and critique this sort of point of view. But I think a good long uncomfortable stare into the eyes of this critique is necessary, given how queer politics have become so recuperative in the recent times.

We're just at a far cry from the insurrectionary queer rebellions of past years. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of insurrectionary trans and queer and gay people out there. But a corrupt bargain has been broach with all of us, and if you don't refuse it every day then you get absorbed into something beyond your control.

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Ashy wrote

oh!

well thank you for the explanation,,, that sounds like a very interesting concept for a video

maybe it'd be good to tag the post somehow that it's not meant literally? sorry that i misunderstood..

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moonlune OP wrote

It's punching up, it can't be literal, although I'll change the title :)

What I found interesting in this video was that she gave a name to the gut reaction that most of us have had /seen ("oh, fuck men, relationships with them are doomed, it'd be easier to live with a woman") while also criticizing it.

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[deleted] wrote

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Ashy wrote

:/

so 90% of women "aren't okay"?

have you like never talked to a straight person or had a straight friend? I don't think i should even have to say they're not all bad...

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[deleted] wrote

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Ashy wrote

f they can't take some insults from non-straight people criticizing their behaviour I don't really care.

okay yeah, but there's no reason to insult someone for their sexual identity...that's just awful :(

just cause many of them do it doesn't mean it's cool to do it back..

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[deleted] wrote

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Ashy wrote

why not focus that energy then on ppl who are actually hurting us?

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[deleted] wrote

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Ashy wrote

regular straight folks? existing?

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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Ashy wrote

i mean it is natural, it is neutral...people don't control their sexuality :/

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subrosa wrote

If you want to insist on a 'born this way' type sexuality, consider how that sexuality is expressed, how it is shaped by or channeled through various existing norms, institutions, morals, power dynamics, etc. — at the very least, there are aspects to what it means to be straight that are a product of culture. None of that is natural (in any inescapable sense), nor neutral.

The 'inherent' straightness, if such a thing exists, doesn't need to create a world that is that hostile to queer folk. And as long as it is, I feel pretty comfortable with punching up and making fun of straights.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

Straightened is inherently trans and NB phobia tho. If you are very attracted to someone and are dating them then they comenout as nonbinary but do little to change your apprence the straight person would either have to become somewhat gay to respect their NB partners identity or stop dating them specifically bc they stopped being cis.

Transphobic in the sense that many straight women might perceive a trans butch woman as a man and be attracted to her but that would be gay so they would not be attracted to the trans person exclusively bc they are trans.

Straighness is controlling ones sexuality. Preventing sexual desire of some queer people to preserve their straightness is what is required to be straight. The same goes for being attracted to pre transition trans people but refusing to date them despite being attracted to them bc they are trans.

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[deleted] wrote

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bloodrose wrote

I would be really damned careful with this rhetoric. I know a lot of old gays that went through a lot of traumatic shit because people believed they were chosing to be gay. While I, as a bi person, have felt it was super bi-erasure to say sexuality isn't a choice, I have to admit that saying it is a choice caused a lot more pain to people and do not need my feelings validated here.

Also, as a woman who has watched hard fought for rights taken away in my lifetime, I am here to tell you it is possible. Gay rights can move backwards. Giving ammo to the right-wing like "sexuality is a choice" is probably not the best idea.

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[deleted] wrote

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dsfsf4ewtb wrote

listen, it's not biological, but it's also not a choice. there is a complex web of cultural, genetic, environmental, and biological factors which endow someone with a specific orientation or gender identity. These things can not be consciously chosen, and they exist outside the realm of politics.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

I will say this it wasn't until encountering the gayness is a choice naritive on raddle did I I stop being straight which made my life way nicer. Personally the born with it naritive has been somewhat invalidating for me. So u may be right about it giving the right wing ammunition but it was a very useful naritive for me in coming to terms with queerness.

I just wanted to add how it has helped me not to invalidate your point. I'm glad you said something bc it is something I should take into consideration as I grew up where being a gay man was quite normal and far less stigmatized. It's something I will take into consideration in mulling over my position of sexuality as a choice.

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bloodrose wrote

No, that's a legit perspective. And perhaps mine is outdated. I could probably use a bit more nuanced perspective here.

I worry about backlash because I remember being a wild, free spirit in the 90s with all my abortion rights and shit and have been watching it all eroded away by MRAs, Tea Parties, TERFs and Q-sters...it just makes me fearful of giving opressors a single inch, especially an inch that they used to weild. I know a lot of gays who went through a bad time because people thought it was a choice and bear those scars.

I am personally ambivalent to the idea of whether or not sexuality is a choice - I don't think rights should depend upon "born this way" mentality and what anyone does with their love is their business and no one ele's. But on a "haha, so funny" note, while watching old Hercules episode today, I was like "There is no way I chose to be attracted to Kevin Sorbo - that man's a jerk!"

I will attempt to rethink my take and approach it from a more nuanced place. Thanks for your gentle input.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

Yeah I'm lucky enough to be privileged enough to not rely on government officials deciding to be nice for me to live my life. So I think your comment is good in h3lping remind me to sympathize with other like u who fear the government taking rights away.

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dsfsf4ewtb wrote

sexuality is unconsciously determined by genetic and environmental factors.

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lettuceLeafer wrote (edited )

Got some evidence for that? I've never seen any research proven sexuality is genetic. It also makes fuck all sense since sex and gender is a societal contrived and not biological. Unless humans somehow evolved in a way that RNA and DNA understand made up societal contracts that constantly change. I'd live to see that study tbh sounds fascinating.

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SJWarCleric wrote

90%? Holy shit that seems high

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bloodrose wrote (edited )

That number is probably based on the Kinsey scale which estimated 10% of the population was some amount of same-sex attracted (gay/bi). Other studies have been done since and have not found as high of a number. So, if you believe demographic studies of gayness, 90% would be very low for straights.

Of course, I think this is becuase of social attitudes towards homosexuality. I don't know that this demographic can be accurately gauged until there is no negative stigmas around homosexuality.

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SJWarCleric wrote

That makes sense. The "assumed" straight would definitely skew higher imo. I worry for a lot of straight folks because a good chunk of them seem miserable. Like the jokes about wanting to murder their spouses combined with spousal abuse rates, child abuse, neglect, etc. is a pretty big yikes for me.

I'm always urging friends to seek out better situations/partners because of what appear to me like big red flags, but the societal expectations combined with shitty situations keep them stuck. Usually it's my hetero lady friends who I'm worried might get murdered but there are a good chunk of hetero fellas who also are treated like shit and supposed to just accept it. Feels bad.

I suspect that a less patriarchal society the "heteros" would not be "upseteros" as the memes state.

I was talking to someone yesterday who had divorced her husband years ago but stayed on friendly terms. She was telling me how she hadn't wanted kids, but he had. So they "compromised" by having a son and a daughter and then a hysterectomy. It doesn't feel like a compromise to me, but I'm biased with a bad case of tokophobia and lesbianism.

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dsfsf4ewtb wrote

speaking as a queer person, it's not cool. Not only is it alienating to all kinds of straight anarchists, it is also possibly dangerous. I'm not sure why you think making fun of straight people is so cool.

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lettuceLeafer wrote

Speaking as a queer person I think we should make concentration camps for straight people. Take that. I'm not sure why u think not cool to kill straight people and don't notice the threat the existence of straight people poses.

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