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celebratedrecluse wrote

It's true, isn't it? On the other hand, what is the alternative that can be envisioned? The author appears to call for simply banning the websites, which would increase exploitation and reduce the opportunities for voluntary sex workers as well. I also rather doubt that it would even be possible to shut down such an online industry, given the many opportunities for companies to simply relocate, host from somewhere else, etc.

I think this situation presents unique challenges for feminism.

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Kinshavo wrote

One can think in a porn peertube pratform made up by a radfeminist Union of Onlyfans workers creating safe content for the community and by the community, giving the workers more control in the distribution etc. This won't solve the problem but will create an alternative.

Another issue is the rights of the content created, with AI deepfakes and AI using already created content to generate new content is hard to devise a protection for the workers.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

An interesting thought. I think the possible issues are reliability of service, lack of socially established userbase, isolation of the workers from each other due to the nature of the "workplace" being digital, specialization driving a wedge between the "tech" workers and the content creators, and attacks from people opposed to the project (reactionaries, competitors, credit card companies, etc)

as far as the existing sites, AI, deepfakes...yeah that's just going to probably have uncontrollable bad effects, you're right. There's no putting technology back in the box once it's out there, I can't think of a single example if I'm honest, of that ever happening.

What do you think could be done to protect or nurture that kind of platform you propose?

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Kinshavo wrote

I think in this little utopic exercise there is lot that I don't know first hand, technical issues and the whole situation of the sex work per se, marginal in almost every aspect for our world. So sorry if I am vague about the details.

The simple answer in this utopic scenario will be the reorganization of this libertarian sex worker bubble that already exists. We already have lots of models, performers, workers, that share the same values of Queerness, genderlessness, Freedoms, a common set of "anarchist ethics" if you want. This efforts needs an organic growth from inside of the already existent base, organizing as always will play a role rallying the users and workers towards this new free platform.

I don't expect this bubble to surpass the current sex market, it will be probably a niche as always for this kind of marginal organization.

Isolation could be a problem if we lost engagement from the community and alienation of the workers, the users will need to play a central role here to nurture the community and care for the well-being of the workers.

The wedge between the tech maintenance and the other workers probably will involve a technical solution of sorts. If we have this platform build in a more inclusive way maybe we can have less issues with the specialization driving conflicts, so again we will need a community really engaged in the "success" of the project.

Outside attacks: big capital/card company boycott, maybe it's inevitable but we already have a black market for other less licit activities, cryptomoney maybe wil be the first alternative here. Competitors, probably will rely on spam attacks but this could be negligible (or not), so again I would expect a technical "magical" solution. Reactionaries, these will be maybe the worst problem because they are driven by ideology of the destruction of the whole project, in the tech side, the wellbeing of the community and poisoning the environment. I would expect lots of issues with them.

About the part of loss control that the workers have about stolen content, and stolen identities, etc we will need a kind of "crypto protocol" (again tech magic) that avoid the indiscriminate unauthorised share of content and it's manipulation without consent. Like, the model share a pic with one person and this person have the pic in a format that can't be manipulated without destroying its content and if they manage to do so we can track the original leak. Maybe a new kind of License will need to be created to ensure this agreement between the community.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

If we have this platform build in a more inclusive way maybe we can have less issues with the specialization driving conflicts

Automation would have to be implemented, and the tech workers would have to have regular meetings with content users with an interest in joining a rotating soviet. Alternatively, it could required for the admins to be content creators.

model share a pic with one person and this person have the pic in a format that can't be manipulated without destroying its content and if they manage to do so we can track the original leak. Maybe a new kind of License will need to be created to ensure this agreement between the community.

NFTs might be useful to wit

Outside attacks: big capital/card company boycott, maybe it's inevitable but we already have a black market for other less licit activities, cryptomoney maybe wil be the first alternative here.

Yeah, the crypto ATMs are all over the world now so, it would be easy to pay people in XMR

This seems like a fun project, perhaps I should do it actually?

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Kinshavo wrote

I would love to hear more about it. Maybe you can find some people in the industry to brainstorm more about the details.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

Do you know about any payservice/webstore type apps for XMR (monero?)

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Kinshavo wrote

No, sorry 😐

Monero seems difficult to exchange, I saw some comments in the sub, but can't tell If it's good advice

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celebratedrecluse wrote

these CryptoNote protocols have qualitatively superior experiences on a number of different levels, but the size of the blockchain and the intentional isolation of exchanges from Fiat-Monero, causes slowed adoption of the protocols, which serves the interests of the surveillance industry

Lack of payment processors etc, is just another form of enforcing this reality on the end users, who are treated by policy as a source of trouble and suspicion, variables to be controlled.

Case in point, OpenBazzar didn't just "fall apart" as a project: it was intentionally fuck with, social infrastructure sabotaged and left to rot by interested third parties.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

GME mania is another form of this approach to controlling financial end users. Channel social energy into buying stocks of bankrupt companies....instead of endeavors like the cryptonote protocols etc, which actually solve real extant problems in the financial field they stand in, and have a material reason to reproduce and generate value as an investment.

Social media has poisoned people's ability to work collaboratively while disaggregated, by inserting the virality of meme logic. At the same time, people think they are so enlightened by the technology, "now I can communicate with anyone on earth, we are super-humans, we lucky privileged few who live in the age of the internet"

Lol

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lastfutures wrote (edited )

Most of the porn industry is actually a million times better at navigating consent than the average person. It's their profession.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

i think you are confusing sex workers with the sex industry.

capitalist institutions are, by definition, built around the manipulation and coercion of consent. capitalism's ability to produce desires and behavior is socially unrivaled, and its closest competitors are closely modeled after its own principals (the similarity between churches and business firms, etc)

sex workers, well, some of them, are quite good with consent. particularly in the kink community and media. some are rapists who operate with impunity, as has been discussed a lot more in the last few years. however, the sex industry as it materially exists now, has many institutions and managers within it that are systematically, and in some cases quite purposefully, working to create unconsensual situations of exploitation in their workplaces.

They are bosses, after all.

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lastfutures wrote

I think that the phrase "the porn industry" includes the sex workers. I don't know how you could possibly read that any other way. I think equating the porn industry with some of the more abusive owners, and disregarding the sex workers, is pretty fucked up, and totally dismisses them & what the people in the industry have to say about it. As I've pointed out before, articles like these are not from the people in the industry who know what goes on, but from Christian anti-porn anti-queer wingnuts. This article was not written by someone concerned with illegal sexual abuse in particular, but the director of an organization against all sex work, from stripping to totally consensual porn. I don't know how you can read this as anything but swerf bullshit.

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metocin wrote

disregarding the sex workers, is pretty fucked up

Most of the porn industry is actually a million times better at navigating consent than the average person

If anything is fucked up here is you glossing over the very real issue of filmed rape, often involving minors, being hosted on the largest porn industry platforms just to make some asinine point about including independent sex workers in 'the porn industry'. An independent producer is not industrial production, one could assume 'the porn industry' would be referencing the large porn corporations such as MindGeek.

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lastfutures wrote

If that's your concern, then post an article that isn't from a reactionary think tank whose sole aim is to target all sex workers with the cops. It's not an asinine concern, these people - and the framing they encourage - are responsible for criminalizing sex workers, for imprisoning them, destroying their livelihoods, putting them in danger.

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metocin wrote

Except I didn't post the article and I'm not referring to it. I realize there are extremely regressive, bigoted takes on the porn industry but there are many legitimate concerns and brushing them off because this particular article has a bad take is ignorant in my opinion.

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lastfutures wrote

I am referring to it, it's why I responded to it. I'm against posting SWERF propaganda. If it were an intelligent good-faith article about that issue I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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metocin wrote

Yeah and you responded with a comment that has 0 nuance or explanation and, as I said, glossed over the very real problem of rape and child rape videos being widely circulated on websites of the porn industry. I think it's very clear that there is an issue with consent in that regard and your motivation led you to completely ignore that because you were too concerned with reacting to the article to properly articulate your viewpoint.

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emma wrote

If I strayed off topic, I wouldn't get mad at people for assuming the subject at hand is the original article that was posted. But maybe that's just me.

Anyway, it's super comforting to know that Christian fundamentalist entryism will fly with people on here as long as sex workers are the collateral.

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metocin wrote

If I strayed off topic, I wouldn't get mad at people for assuming the subject at hand is the original article that was posted. But maybe that's just me.

Fair I guess but I don't think that changes my criticism of their comment.

Anyway, it's super comforting to know that Christian fundamentalist entryism will fly with people on here as long as sex workers are the collateral.

Wow. Way to completely misrepresent my comments.

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lastfutures wrote

If someone posted an article on here from the police union about how we need more police because some drug dealers put fentanyl in other drugs and kill people, and I reacted in a similar manner, would you respond the same way? Bad drug dealers are a real problem right? Or do you want to kill drug users?!

I think when sex is the issue people freak out, lose all their principles, and start making excuses for reactionaries.

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GlangSnorrisson wrote

I think when sex is the issue people freak out, lose all their principles, and start making excuses for reactionaries

Ok, so I’m not the only one to notice this. It’s like anytime naked people are involved suddenly all the shit takes come out.

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[deleted] wrote (edited )

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lastfutures wrote (edited )

I'm not trying to strawman you, I was explaining why I objected to this article.

Vaguely bringing up an argument from months ago to take the moral highground every time you get called out for shitty behavior or lose an argument is transparently manipulative fyi. Assholes on here have done that way too many times for it to be effective.

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metocin wrote (edited )

You were unwilling to address my valid concern about your reductionist comment and instead implied that by responding they way I did I was going to bat for some regressive bigots and trying to insult sex workers. That is not what I was doing when I responded to you.

I think it's relevant because you have done so multiple times and don't seem to understand why it's disturbing. I'm sure others might feel the same way and they have the right to know, especially when you are making other comments that could come across as harmful.

How do you know that someone who experienced child abuse, or someone who was raped at a porn shoot didn't read your comments and have their PTSD triggered? Without context some of your comments can be interpreted in a very negative and harmful way and maybe that's something you should think about more instead of being focused on winning an argument or telling everyone who challenges you that they're an asshole or exhibiting shitty behaviour. I'm not trying to take a moral highground, I'm trying to make you actually think about things that you have posted because you otherwise seem like an intelligent person and I don't think you're actually trying to harm anyone.

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ShadesPath wrote

You got any backing behind the pedophilia thing? If true, it needs to be brought to a mod's attention.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

I think that the phrase "the porn industry" includes the sex workers. I don't know how you could possibly read that any other way.

I think this is our misunderstanding. Here is my framework: industries are exploiters of workers' labor, for the benefit of managers and owners. So, industries are sectional beings, fragmented by contradictory interests, and increasingly with globalization and hyperspecialization are also composed of people of wildly diverse and even divergent social characteristics.

Really all I meant to do, is articulate the standard communist critique of work and industries.

I think equating the porn industry with some of the more abusive owners, and disregarding the sex workers, is pretty fucked up, and totally dismisses them & what the people in the industry have to say about it.

I think this is a bad-faith moralization, which misrepresents what I was bringing up to shut it down unfairly. I'm not speaking from outside my experience here.

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lastfutures wrote

Ok but the authors of the article aren't putting forward a communist critique of work and industry in the sense you mean it. I get what you mean by it, I'm not trying to be bad faith about your opinion, but I think you are conflating your opinion with the article's. The people who wrote the article do try to paint with as broad a brush as possible, they are constantly trying to take agency away from anyone involved in sex work.

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celebratedrecluse wrote

They are, and I said something different like you acknowledge now. I guess, my thought is, who cares about the article? I was trying to have a conversation about the topic, which was prompted by your comment rather than the article itself. Perhaps in the future, we can have more open discussion of these issues without letting reactionaries define one pole of it for us, and the options being either supporting some form of capitalism or defending socially reactionary, inherently bad faith critiques of some industry or another. This is a problem which is way bigger than this small and relatively trivial exchange, and is fucking up many different opportunities to discuss something, or for people to even want to participate in the first place in those conversation, which are thing I think you also care about.

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ShadesPath wrote

It's a good thing I only read asexual furry hentai.

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Kinshavo wrote (edited )

Until we get an article not paid by the swerf-reactionary-christian lobby, here is an older post

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