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kinshavo OP wrote

Somehow this take appeal to leftist, but nevertheless I still waiting for a text or a collection of texts criticizing the whole covid bioterror from the state and the dictatorship of health, happiness, life.

Nihilist Anarchism may have a different understandings of all this but it's not the only one, we need to seek more understandings beyond the current one.

We need anarchist research on the body, life&death, health &sick, able and disable (the work cannot be the only measurement to define an able body/person/mind...

And thinking in about vaccines and mandates is not a big deal, it's ok (good!?) To have a state providing you a source of health (fuck off with5G nano chip) but as Anarchist I need to question why the State have the monopoly or at least channels the whole effort of distribution of health? (Now insert a "third world" criticism of the global north division). And another thing, Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you..


deeppurplehazedream wrote (edited )

Let this be a warning to any wannabe Chompski anarchist heroe-this is how it always end-very badly. And why is u/Kinshavo always being invaded? What are they Ukraine? I have no substance critique.


temporary_ wrote

Don't know what there is to debate here, it's just a wumao talking about three random countries ignoring the fact they used different approaches and had different results, but yeah I guess Vietnam and Cuba did good, the last one being famous for its superior health sector. China did a terrible job managing the pandemic, but since it has a lot of clout within the international community western countries fell for its propaganda and looked at it as a positive model, the disastrous results of this can still be seen.

Meanwhile, many countries saw good results with their strategies, including the liberal democracy of Taiwan that was one of the most exposed nation considering the constant human flow between the island and the chinese mainland, which increases around new year. Ironically, Taiwan could be seen as having benefitted from its exclusion from the WHO. Most of the countries in Asia and Africa seems to have done a good job, but the West can't accept this so it pushes the idea that the entire world was completely fucked over by this virus and that China is the exception. Wrong, especially because China's handling of the pandemic has been criminal and I'm sure many of its citizens lost trust in the government, but at the start of 2020 many of them were silenced and after that most foreign journalists with any integrity have been kicked out of the country, today it's very difficult to know what's going on there thus it's very easy to post baseless claims on twitter.

It's like when media and intellectuals from the West say that chinese citizens don't care about privacy, meanwhile when it comes to facial recognition a domestic poll showed around 80% of them is worried about data leakage. Also, China is pretty fucking good at ammassing biopower.

And only corporate drones use terms such as "anti-vax". A huge share of the population in South Africa doesn't want to get jabbed, more than in most western countries, to the point that the government kindly asked big pharma to stop sending doses, instead of coercing their population into giving away their rights on their bodies. South Africa is also one of the countries who had the most issues with the absurd demands advanced by the pharma companies providing the vaccine, the indemnity clause was seen a requeste to surrender their national sovereignity. I guess they have enough respects for their citizens to avoid belittling them only to please greedy corporations, at least in this case I mean. Meanwhile, South Africa just abolished the need to quarantine for asymptomatic patients, because they know how to manage this kind of crisis, unlike the hysteric West that can only think in terms of jabs and restriction of individual freedom, both things more effective at enriching who is already rich than improving public health.


kinshavo OP wrote

Don't know what there is to debate here

Well, you just went to the point about China how the West ® is manufacturing a new sociological crisis. Look at Austria and other European countries (the pinnacle of liberal democracy).

I don't know about South Africa, but I disagree with this notion that they managed better the situation bc they "know" hot to handle cases like this. Imho many poor countries have to prioritize other pressing issues, other than Covid crisis, it's cruel to think about it but other "tropical" health issues have been killing people and there wasn't a commotion around it.

Personally, I have two scattered sets of thoughts to think about this Pandemics. First, how Anarchists are missing the point, very much because of the general&generic leftist discourse. And second, how the Communist thought is focusing in their XXth century interpretation about work and production and not being critical enough about the basics of theory of Commons and health as a point of inflection in any mass struggle.

But whatever, the year is almost gone 2022 will be different


temporary_ wrote (edited )

What I meant was that even if there is much to debate in relation to the pandemic, and I get your points, but that tweet sounds wrong in so many ways to me I would just ignore it, if he had referred only to China it would have made more sense even if I would still disagree.

West ®

Lazy choice of words on my part.

I disagree with this notion that they managed better the situation bc they "know" hot to handle cases like this.

You are right, I made it too simple there, but I still think they know better than other affluent countries. Prioritizing is key and I believe that realizing that a vaccine isn't a panacea and that pharma companies aren't our saviours means knowing better than countries who seem to do otherwise. And if affluent countries really wanted to solve this crisis through vaccination they could have worked at jabbing as soon as possible all the at-risk share of the global population, instead of first trying to vaccinate the not at-risk share of their peoples and then even putting in motion domestic booster programmes.

Can you explain me the reference to Chomsky? Is he still defending communist regimes? I thought he was more into liberal democracies now and that was the reason for him being despised by anarchists. And do his anarchist critics, for example the users of this site, usually dismiss his whole theory or just a part of it?


kinshavo OP wrote

I agree the tweet is shallow and wrong as you put. Not a lazy choice of words, West is a fair word, I became used to write ® to emphasize the West in the common accepted metaphor.

It's a theme that draw my attention bc lots of Anarchists went confused after the pandemics regarding the state and other pressing issues. This lack of "theoretical certainty" among the millieu produced a field to entryism and other confusion that put some of them together with alt right and neofash. I don't claim to have all figured out but the people I talk irl or have the same discourse as this leftist tweet or the opposite right wing antivacx

The Chomsky referencia was a cheap provokation, but I am sure he defended the Khmer rouge before


temporary_ wrote (edited )

I don't claim to have all figured out but the people I talk irl or have the same discourse as this leftist tweet or the opposite right wing antivacx

It's really a sad state of affairs. To me it renforces the conviction that the left and right dichotomy is a spook.

What some governments have done is incredibly alarming, just think about how devastating the introduction of the vax pass must have been to illegal immigrants and the like. Good critiques are starting to come out, Agamben approach is too lazy, problem is that most people are simply ok with these new forms of despotism.


kinshavo OP wrote

Why do you think Agamben critique is lazy? Well I only read the couple of articles that were published. If you mean that they are somewhat preliminary (not sure about this word here) I would agree, but if we remember during the first year all libertarian (using here libertarian as. Anti auth) voices were silent to a problem that the nature was not social (a pandemic can and has been manipulated socially/politically though).

The degree of alienation and ignorance is inversely proportional to how we are feed fast information, like social media 5g is fast food for the brain. And that quote that says the censorship now is not about hidden content but is burying content in a sea of trash information. This is one of my reasons to think about pedagogy and prefiguration (my own interpretation of it) to respond to it. But then I do not have any illusions of the "inevitability" of a global anarchic utopía for the next 10.000 years, like someone told me once.

most people are simply ok with these new forms of despotism

Probably when one of those billionaire saviors appear with an AI to manage a country efficiently and sell it to Saudi Arabia or other Dictatorship people will claim to have those in social democracies too, I can even picture it.


temporary_ wrote (edited )

I see Covid-19 as a serious disease that shouldn't be taken lightly, even if right now its effects are being blown out of proportion. Agamben dismissed the gravity of this pandemic from the start, as if this was just a plot to expand the ability of governments to control their citizens. I don't think that's the case, I believe some governments approached this as if it was just another PR nightmare, disregarding our health. Since people at the top are usually control freaks, they often chose to implement draconian measures, being unable of thinking of a different approach, and in many cases they kept these ineffective measures in place because they liked the power that came with it. Assuming that declaring it an epidemic of concern was just a trick to overreach seems wrong to me.

I find his analysis not that interesting, he doesn't seem to have studied carefully the situation, he just applies his usual frameworks to it. He really likes to compare the persecution of the unvaxxed to the persecution of jewish people by the Third Reich, I think that even if the two things have similiraties they are very much different and this difference must be understood. This form of discrimination is based on a choice, the refusal of conforming to the collective adoption of a new technology, not on an innate identity. I'm ok with holocaust survivors making the comparison, I know about a couple of them.

I don't remember his articles in detail, so I'm being pretty basic here.

Does this mean I disagree with all he says? No, I generally agree with part of it, I just think it rests on misguided assumptions.


Fool wrote

As much as I hate CCP, etc. I would note that a fair amount of anti-vax material is being pedalled by anti-china propoganda groups, like the Falun Gong, so there is also an element that anti-vaxers are supported by "Western" Government supported propoganda organisations.


kinshavo OP wrote

This is interesting, and this can be show as proof that the system provide the both sides of the discourse. That's why accepting the leftist or the liberal sides of supporting mandates and other dystopian agenda items ia problematic, to say the least

I feel the need to tear down these easy answers. It's strange to see Agamben recuperated by the antivaxx alt right


lettuceLeafer wrote

I think most people are more than willing to do whatever a "let's be honest here man" in a white coat with a MD says. As long as the medical infrastructure is only slightly corrupt.

If it so happens that in the US the medical system is so openly corrupt and doesn't care about if people live or die and won't release what's in the vaccine people won't trust the people who are open about murdering them and have killed their family members inj cringe them with a syringe that they won't reveal what's in it.

I think this is a case of CCP and Cuba having medical infrastructure that do not cross the line of a trying to be as fuck horrible as possible. I don't know much about these 3 countries actual covid policies other than conjecture so I won't discuss it.

Tho my bet for no anti vax being a thing is just people in China or Cuba have some basic trust that their doctors won't kill them for 10 dollars or bc they are racist. Bc let's be honestly there are so pretty good reasons to not want to be around doctors if youre not white in the US.

Tho there r plenty of anti vax people who r white tho. And that still stems from the same problem they dont trust the medical infrastructure.

So I would say China or Cuba prob don't have an anti vax problem bc the doctors aren't openly the least trustworthy individuals ever.


kinshavo OP wrote

In my experience I can say that we have the burgeoisusi/ middle class antivaxx and the precarious working class that is not antivaxx but don't trust the govt or the big companies to have themselves inoculated..

And I believe there is a clear demographics among the countries, Europe and North America have more of these types.

What you said go along what I said on other comment, this is an opportunity to build another understanding about how anarchism and communism (Marxist or not) can unwrap the issue marking their position in a constructive way.