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Tequila_Wolf wrote (edited )

That said, reading this it seems that literally all of the problem for these people is that they are treated badly for being North Korean, and that this has almost nothing to do with North Korea's desirability on its own.

"I've experienced so much harassment and I'm treated like a second-class citizen."

"he was paid much less than fellow workers"

"He said he suffers from the stigma of coming from the North, saying most South Koreans see him as backward or stupid."

"I am lonely and most of the defectors think like this"

"South Korean people don't want to socialise with us, they don't treat us like human beings."

That aside, people get culture shock moving to different places all the time. And loads of people get nostalgic about disgusting fascist dictatorships all the time and nobody is in a rush to call to cast those places in a good light. I remember hearing an old italian once talking about how nice it was in mussolini's time - you didn't have to lock your doors!

Finally, "It is estimated 25 per cent of all defectors have seriously considered returning home." - I wonder what the numbers are for migrants to any country.

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monkeec wrote

Good points. But I don't doubt for a second that south korea is a horrible materialistic place obsessed with money. They have very high plastic surgery rates and they all get the same procedure, scary.

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SpiritOfTito wrote (edited )

Broadly agree with all of what your saying.

It does question whether North Korea is the hell the US likes to portray it though. These people afterall left NK for a better life. And South korea cant provide that?

We already know a lot of news out of NK is horseshit: The uncle ripped apart by a pack of dogs, the man strapped to an AA gun for execution...

Both turning up in government posts 6 months later and instead of being plastered across front page news if makes itself for page 16 in a small box under a bigger article.

The west fabricates such news often and has to retract it when those claims are demonstratably false (IE. Claimed an execution of a man still alive).

Nks real sin is they resist global capitalism in the same way Saddam, Ghaddafi and 75 other governments have since 1945

And in that I mean they use their labor, their land and natural resources for themselve and don't open their countries up for western extraction. To become a cheap source of labor for global capital, to sell their natural resources for pennies on the pound.

I'm sure NK isn't a great place. Is it likely the worst news about NK is true though? That they imprison generations at a time? I highly doubt it if 1/4 defectors want to leave the incredibly wealthy ROK and receive punishment upon returning.

That propaganda is probably about as true as Saddams 45 minutes to launch wmd, as true as the gulf of tonkin incident etc.

And the only real reason Trump wants a wa ris because it does to every US president that goes to war: Shores up their approval ratings.

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PainlessEphemera wrote

Didn’t people say that the atrocities in Nazi Germany, the Holocaust, extermination camps, wasn’t true? That it was impossible for someone to be that cruel. That’s why I wouldn’t assume the stories about imprisoning generations at a time and other awful things aren’t true. Besides, what would the refugees from the camps gain from lying about the conditions?

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SpiritOfTito wrote (edited )

We're at nazi germany already?

Nazi germany systematically exterminated 11 million people in one year.

North korea has been barraged by propaganda since the korean war.

The defectors with the most outlandish tales sold their stories to south korean tabloids and became celebrities/rich off them. As that money dried up and for those that didn't share similar tales they (as the article indicates) just ended up in bedsits living a meagre existence and discriminated against in SK society.

Why are so many bootlickers on this website?

The US has killed far more people than anyone else on the planet in 70 years. They imprison as percent of their population, more people than Iran, russia, china or north korea or any civilisation that has ever existed.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738

Why do people beat the "humanitarian intervention" against a nation that hasn't invaded anyone since SK in the 50s?

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Defasher wrote

Rejecting all tyrants; all states doesn't make us bootlickers, it makes us smart.

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SpiritOfTito wrote (edited )

Its convenient when anarchists and socialists of various stripes and "left intellectuals" reject tyrants rather than stand against all imperialism, it means and stands for nothing less than the status quo and a war against a peoples that already suffered the devastating atrocity of having 20 percent of their population murdered by the super power of the world.

Which is what the US did to the dprk in the 50s

And continues to do by blockading their shipping ports.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

the fuck are you on about? How do I not stand against imperialism? I'm not even Western - imperialism has fucked my family going back countless generations.

you can reject states AND their imperialism. Aint hard, bruv.

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SpiritOfTito wrote (edited )

I don't know. Seems quite easy to say such a thing when safely ensconced within a virulently anti communist and anti leftist society and say you "reject all states" when it comes to imperialism.

Thats just simply a false equivilence. And ignores how the entire world is divided under global capitalism(IE. Into states).

So when it comes to anti imperialism struggles and not wanting disgusting western boots on the ground of iraq, Syria, yemen, somalia, north korea you can simply go:

Yeah but fuck those guys i reject all states.

Must be a very comforting position to take.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

So the solution to imperialism is more states. Gotchya. Because its worked SO well up until now.

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SpiritOfTito wrote (edited )

Thats exactly what I said. States eh, cant get enough of them. Yummy yummy states /s

Whilst your putting words in my mouth ill put some in yours: Thanks for saying how good I look today. Its probably the shampoo and a good nights sleep

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Defasher wrote

If you aint saying states need to exist to defeat imperialism then wot?

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SpiritOfTito wrote (edited )

You think any nation under the threat of US imperialism should dissolve their states, their standing armies, their methods of hierarchy and what?

Open the gates of their coumtry so the US can fuck them five ways from Sunday, murder 20 percent of their population, steal their resources and then not report it in their newspapers like the did in the 50s and like they refuse to report on the US inflicted famine in Yemen?

I mean sure you could do that and be a principled leftist. You'd also be a dead leftist.

Its not for me to say ultimately how people under the bootheel of US imperialism should organise to protect themselves.

But if i were asked for advice I would say dissolving your state whilst under the threat of the Great Satan would be the stupidest thing you can do.

Again, That doesnt mean I support the organisation of human society into states.

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Defasher wrote (edited )

If the ppl refuse to be ruled then america has nutin to conquer. Decentralised guerilla warfare is the only way to keep the empire in the hole. Centralised power falls in an instant and takes all of us with it.

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SpiritOfTito wrote

Well now thats something I can get on board with.

At the same time I cant begrudge people that lived through the horror of the 50s in NK and who have a orange faced gimp threatening to destroy them who turn to their state for security.